Aren’t we sort of still trying to get over the days we give managers money in the market? It’s how we ended up with a load of number 10’s or signing Allan for £30m or signing players off of YouTube (Martinez)
Aren’t we sort of still trying to get over the days we give managers money in the market? It’s how we ended up with a load of number 10’s or signing Allan for £30m or signing players off of YouTube (Martinez)
We need a base to start from and these players we have at the moment have shown that they are not that good. I don't think many managers would get much of a tune from what we have now so we really have to get better. Our managers from recent past have failed with money but regardless we have not much option but to try and improve with signings. We cannot stand still with the squad we have now and not much prospect of youth coming through
You can make signings by not giving the manager the money you know? That’s how you avoid buying an Antony for £80m.
I'd say so Sue. Is there anything that you want to tell us?
I suspect that he'd spend it down the pub.
Lol I never got to the dizzy heights of Secretary
DualityNSNO
How much for the pair?
I mean all of Europe exists, we don't have to limit ourselves to just the PL - if they're good enough they're good enough. I know every transition is a long winded one but what exactly will Dyche transform us into? Stability is his ceiling imho, he's too stubborn to allow himself to progress because he's stuck in his ways and nothing else.
I don't want us to invest in Dyche (or let Dyche spend money) as he has no eyes to the future - we'll get more Ashley Youngs than Jarrod Branthwaites, because it's his MO, it's how he works and has always worked. Surprised you think otherwise - he had money several times at Burnley and spent it on Wout Weghorsts and the likes hilariously. Before "But it's Burnley" - well, we're Everton, we might big ourselves up and all that but we're not massive and haven't been for decades now, so it's the same deal and this transition has to have a buy-to-sell part. Based on team names and reputation - players will currently go to your Aston Villas, Tottenhams and probably even "lesser" teams instead of us, on a whim, like Danjuma. Especially if they're young - why would you come here? To follow the path to first team football of Patterson, Chermiti, Dobbin?
He should live his contract out at best and leave. We can't afford sacking him right now anyway. There aren't "few managers" - that's naive. He's not a miracle worker or some kind of savant manager, he's Sean Dyche, the most "proven quality" manager in England. Don't forget this next time we go "oh wow where did team X pull this guy from" when there's the next big name in management at a smaller team - if you give a decent working environment to a manager it will work, but we're stuck in old ways. German teams/managers do it properly for this - take a smaller team to the mid level of the Bundesliga, prove that you can achieve that consistently while building on it in cups/tournaments/etc., prove your methods work, get promoted to a bigger team - Klopp, Flick, Tedesco, Tuchel, Rose off the top of my head were given chances with teams much bigger and with different expectations than their own when they achieved competitive stability and found success. Yet, we have "The one and only Sean Dyche" as an answer. Apparently there's teams that are with players that won't get into our first team but other managers have them playing for more points and better football where they at least try to win, which I've been told is illogical for us to want or expect.
I was a fan of Moyes - for a long time he did almost the impossible because of Fat Good Times Man, but even he hit his ceiling - we'd be perenially fighting to be 7th at best with him and he left when he should have (not how he should have, imo, but whatever) but now? 12 years on and people want him back, so he can reach the same ceiling again? Or do we just only regurgitate Prem managers because we're so massive and such a lucrative team to manage?
Plus, Moyes was the same dinosaur as Dyche frustratingly - we had decent young players who were never given a chance and then we'd be shocked when they're decent in the positions we need. He played Rooney the same way Dyche plays anyone not named Branthwaite (as he has no choice there) currently in his first season - barely, even though he was getting wins. You know what you get with him - slightly better football than Dyche. I wrote a longer post on why he's a bad idea to re-hire in a different thread, don't remember where tho tbh, but the gist is "enough sentimental hires".Your mate is right, and even then we got there first and got barely through due to mismanagement by the man himself. He improved marginally on Lampard's results, not like we were sent flying somehow? We were in a fantastic position (as we are now) to capitalise and be out of sight of relegation, but we didn't do it as he had no idea. It all came down to the last game exactly because of mismanagement in opportune moments - he had to stray slightly from what he knew and absolutely ballsed it up for several games - and that's why his ceiling is fighting for relegation and why he sets up the way he does - it's what he knows.
Delargeinho
Player Valuation: £6m
I have a lot of respect of Dyche what he did with Burnley. To keep such a team up on this budget a couple of seasons and low needs some skill as a manager, despite getting relegated them once and about for a 2nd time.
On the other hand, Burnley kept their style over pretty much whole time and in a big European side you need more than just negating oppositions and maybe due to tactical limitations and lack of investment at Burnley the playing way didn't not progress. This probably scared off a lot of good teams. I am pretty honest I would fear Dyche's Burnley more to play against than Kompany's from what I've seen on the prem level. You knew it's a pain in the neck game against an annoying opponent and won't be beautiful. I don't have this feeling about them now.
Dyche's style needs players that play their hearts out for the club and each other, he won't find them in a top 6 club filled with primadonnas. So I see him suited for bottom half teams trying to survive in the prem or teams that are in a situation like us when he came in.
For me he widely confirmed what to expect considering his Burnley period. I see him as a solid till good manager, but not a very good or world class one. For me that shows it, when you tailor your approach depending on the players available and reaction in negative moments.
For me success is not only about winning titles, but achieve what's expected or even more with a club than possible given the circumstances, either proven one time for a longer period or with a couple of times.
It will show in the next couple of weeks, if he can change the negative trend of the last three months.
I mean all of Europe exists, we don't have to limit ourselves to just the PL - if they're good enough they're good enough. I know every transition is a long winded one but what exactly will Dyche transform us into? Stability is his ceiling imho, he's too stubborn to allow himself to progress because he's stuck in his ways and nothing else.
I don't want us to invest in Dyche (or let Dyche spend money) as he has no eyes to the future - we'll get more Ashley Youngs than Jarrod Branthwaites, because it's his MO, it's how he works and has always worked. Surprised you think otherwise - he had money several times at Burnley and spent it on Wout Weghorsts and the likes hilariously. Before "But it's Burnley" - well, we're Everton, we might big ourselves up and all that but we're not massive and haven't been for decades now, so it's the same deal and this transition has to have a buy-to-sell part. Based on team names and reputation - players will currently go to your Aston Villas, Tottenhams and probably even "lesser" teams instead of us, on a whim, like Danjuma. Especially if they're young - why would you come here? To follow the path to first team football of Patterson, Chermiti, Dobbin?
He should live his contract out at best and leave. We can't afford sacking him right now anyway. There aren't "few managers" - that's naive. He's not a miracle worker or some kind of savant manager, he's Sean Dyche, the most "proven quality" manager in England. Don't forget this next time we go "oh wow where did team X pull this guy from" when there's the next big name in management at a smaller team - if you give a decent working environment to a manager it will work, but we're stuck in old ways. German teams/managers do it properly for this - take a smaller team to the mid level of the Bundesliga, prove that you can achieve that consistently while building on it in cups/tournaments/etc., prove your methods work, get promoted to a bigger team - Klopp, Flick, Tedesco, Tuchel, Rose off the top of my head were given chances with teams much bigger and with different expectations than their own when they achieved competitive stability and found success. Yet, we have "The one and only Sean Dyche" as an answer. Apparently there's teams that are with players that won't get into our first team but other managers have them playing for more points and better football where they at least try to win, which I've been told is illogical for us to want or expect.
I was a fan of Moyes - for a long time he did almost the impossible because of Fat Good Times Man, but even he hit his ceiling - we'd be perenially fighting to be 7th at best with him and he left when he should have (not how he should have, imo, but whatever) but now? 12 years on and people want him back, so he can reach the same ceiling again? Or do we just only regurgitate Prem managers because we're so massive and such a lucrative team to manage?
Your mate is right, and even then we got there first and got barely through due to mismanagement by the man himself. He improved marginally on Lampard's results, not like we were sent flying somehow? We were in a fantastic position (as we are now) to capitalise and be out of sight of relegation, but we didn't do it as he had no idea. It all came down to the last game exactly because of mismanagement in opportune moments - he had to stray slightly from what he knew and absolutely ballsed it up for several games - and that's why his ceiling is fighting for relegation and why he sets up the way he does - it's what he knows.
I admire your energy to argue this topic with @Neiler
Personally I think him staying on with a remit to transition us into whatever is the least likely outcome
1. Most likely will be two seasons of keeping us up and boring and annoying us like he is doing now. If we somehow have money in summer 2025 and a prospect under new owners of improving the squad he will be replaced (Personally ok with this)
2. Next most likely is we are still a mess financially in summer 2025 with real squad improvement and he is still seen as a better option to keep us in the league than any gamble they might take with another (also ok with this, if hoping against hope it doesn't happen. Those more pessimistic on the finances might move this to number one)
3. He relegates us
4. The club decide they want to roll the dice and pay him off and get another manager in at any time this or next season
5. The club goes bust, ceases to exist and we all start supporting Everton AFC in the lower leagues
6. The club see something in him that he doesn't seem to have shown in all his career and stick with him through any period of recovery off the pitch and any return to actual transfer funds and plan with him for BMD and beyond
...at least I'm telling myself number one happens and in summer 2025 I can get back to dreaming of a good manager and good signings and kicking off in BMD with renewed hope
Delargeinho
Player Valuation: £6m
I do agree with the post. Obviously replacing one of the best managers in history at M UTD was an impossible task for anyone, especially if someone shapes a succesful era such a long time. I think Moyes achieved his personal limits, but also the club limits for clubs like Everton or West Ham. That's consistent becoming 7-10, maybe going on a cup or European run. It's just impossible to keep up with teams like Arsenal, City or Liverpool financially and expect CL football or fight for the title consistently, maybe you have a year like Blackburn or Leicester, which happens quite rarely. You can compensate with good work off and on pitch to certain extent, but in the end you cannot keep up with the big 6 on the long term.I mean all of Europe exists, we don't have to limit ourselves to just the PL - if they're good enough they're good enough. I know every transition is a long winded one but what exactly will Dyche transform us into? Stability is his ceiling imho, he's too stubborn to allow himself to progress because he's stuck in his ways and nothing else.
I don't want us to invest in Dyche (or let Dyche spend money) as he has no eyes to the future - we'll get more Ashley Youngs than Jarrod Branthwaites, because it's his MO, it's how he works and has always worked. Surprised you think otherwise - he had money several times at Burnley and spent it on Wout Weghorsts and the likes hilariously. Before "But it's Burnley" - well, we're Everton, we might big ourselves up and all that but we're not massive and haven't been for decades now, so it's the same deal and this transition has to have a buy-to-sell part. Based on team names and reputation - players will currently go to your Aston Villas, Tottenhams and probably even "lesser" teams instead of us, on a whim, like Danjuma. Especially if they're young - why would you come here? To follow the path to first team football of Patterson, Chermiti, Dobbin?
He should live his contract out at best and leave. We can't afford sacking him right now anyway. There aren't "few managers" - that's naive. He's not a miracle worker or some kind of savant manager, he's Sean Dyche, the most "proven quality" manager in England. Don't forget this next time we go "oh wow where did team X pull this guy from" when there's the next big name in management at a smaller team - if you give a decent working environment to a manager it will work, but we're stuck in old ways. German teams/managers do it properly for this - take a smaller team to the mid level of the Bundesliga, prove that you can achieve that consistently while building on it in cups/tournaments/etc., prove your methods work, get promoted to a bigger team - Klopp, Flick, Tedesco, Tuchel, Rose off the top of my head were given chances with teams much bigger and with different expectations than their own when they achieved competitive stability and found success. Yet, we have "The one and only Sean Dyche" as an answer. Apparently there's teams that are with players that won't get into our first team but other managers have them playing for more points and better football where they at least try to win, which I've been told is illogical for us to want or expect.
I was a fan of Moyes - for a long time he did almost the impossible because of Fat Good Times Man, but even he hit his ceiling - we'd be perenially fighting to be 7th at best with him and he left when he should have (not how he should have, imo, but whatever) but now? 12 years on and people want him back, so he can reach the same ceiling again? Or do we just only regurgitate Prem managers because we're so massive and such a lucrative team to manage?
Your mate is right, and even then we got there first and got barely through due to mismanagement by the man himself. He improved marginally on Lampard's results, not like we were sent flying somehow? We were in a fantastic position (as we are now) to capitalise and be out of sight of relegation, but we didn't do it as he had no idea. It all came down to the last game exactly because of mismanagement in opportune moments - he had to stray slightly from what he knew and absolutely ballsed it up for several games - and that's why his ceiling is fighting for relegation and why he sets up the way he does - it's what he knows.
It's a bascially a general question of a club, do you want to stick with someone that brings that consistency with rather dire football and is pretty sure to reach that or do you want to risk to keep that status with a more attractive approach of playing. This is the situation West Ham is in with the expiring contract of Moyes.
DualityNSNO
How much for the pair?
@Neiler is good people mate, good convo going for nearly anything on here
From your 'propositions' I'd take #1 too. #2 if we have any tangible improvement rather than "they run a lot but lose". #4 is pretty much the same as #1 - we can't fire him now so him seeing it out while stabilising the club is begrudgingly "fine by me".
The rest I'd very much be against as we'd be fully Royal Blue Burnley for 3 or 6 and 5, well... yeah. I said it to Neiler above (and before) that I'd love to be wrong and for him to magically improve and be a gravelly voiced Cholo for us, but it's very much not happening sadly.
Same really, in my head it's all fine and good (or at least better) come 2025 and BMD and we replace him with an adequate manager that actually gets results and insists on better football.
hippopotamus
Player Valuation: £1m
I wonder what Tony Pulis could do with Real Madrid or Juventus. It's a shame he never got a chance.
DualityNSNO
How much for the pair?
Yeah, truly impossible to contend for small clubs like us, Villa, etc.
I know this is for this season but we've broken that or been close enough to break it many times too, with Moyes, but he rarely set foot over the line. Same in Europe - he's achieved success now, but are we pretending that bombing out at the first sight of post-group match stages and 1 FA cup final in a decade is "getting results"? Or is it that this is his limit and someone with better ability and management nous like Emery, who's won things just about everywhere he's been and is okay to be a slight underdog, are more suited to contend with the moneyed up teams? Is he not a product of smarter recruitment with a plan by Villa? Almost as if we can use our DoF/Scouting department and recruit accordingly?
Also Dyche is not bringing "challenging for top 5/6" consistency to the club, he's bringing the "relegation fight year on year" consistency, which is playing with fire.
I mean all of Europe exists, we don't have to limit ourselves to just the PL - if they're good enough they're good enough. I know every transition is a long winded one but what exactly will Dyche transform us into? Stability is his ceiling imho, he's too stubborn to allow himself to progress because he's stuck in his ways and nothing else.
I don't want us to invest in Dyche (or let Dyche spend money) as he has no eyes to the future - we'll get more Ashley Youngs than Jarrod Branthwaites, because it's his MO, it's how he works and has always worked. Surprised you think otherwise - he had money several times at Burnley and spent it on Wout Weghorsts and the likes hilariously. Before "But it's Burnley" - well, we're Everton, we might big ourselves up and all that but we're not massive and haven't been for decades now, so it's the same deal and this transition has to have a buy-to-sell part. Based on team names and reputation - players will currently go to your Aston Villas, Tottenhams and probably even "lesser" teams instead of us, on a whim, like Danjuma. Especially if they're young - why would you come here? To follow the path to first team football of Patterson, Chermiti, Dobbin?
He should live his contract out at best and leave. We can't afford sacking him right now anyway. There aren't "few managers" - that's naive. He's not a miracle worker or some kind of savant manager, he's Sean Dyche, the most "proven quality" manager in England. Don't forget this next time we go "oh wow where did team X pull this guy from" when there's the next big name in management at a smaller team - if you give a decent working environment to a manager it will work, but we're stuck in old ways. German teams/managers do it properly for this - take a smaller team to the mid level of the Bundesliga, prove that you can achieve that consistently while building on it in cups/tournaments/etc., prove your methods work, get promoted to a bigger team - Klopp, Flick, Tedesco, Tuchel, Rose off the top of my head were given chances with teams much bigger and with different expectations than their own when they achieved competitive stability and found success. Yet, we have "The one and only Sean Dyche" as an answer. Apparently there's teams that are with players that won't get into our first team but other managers have them playing for more points and better football where they at least try to win, which I've been told is illogical for us to want or expect.
I was a fan of Moyes - for a long time he did almost the impossible because of Fat Good Times Man, but even he hit his ceiling - we'd be perenially fighting to be 7th at best with him and he left when he should have (not how he should have, imo, but whatever) but now? 12 years on and people want him back, so he can reach the same ceiling again? Or do we just only regurgitate Prem managers because we're so massive and such a lucrative team to manage?
Your mate is right, and even then we got there first and got barely through due to mismanagement by the man himself. He improved marginally on Lampard's results, not like we were sent flying somehow? We were in a fantastic position (as we are now) to capitalise and be out of sight of relegation, but we didn't do it as he had no idea. It all came down to the last game exactly because of mismanagement in opportune moments - he had to stray slightly from what he knew and absolutely ballsed it up for several games - and that's why his ceiling is fighting for relegation and why he sets up the way he does - it's what he knows.
This is the thing - the unicorn if you will, the unflinching belief that there is someone out there "In Europe" that will grab us by the boot strap be a savant and rebuild the club, pragmatically i dont see it - if you ask who the answer is always "im not a director of football". Its unicorns stuff in my opinion. Why? We are very unattractive for any manager realistically, we can do the faux Everton/PL thing - but ultimately, any decent manager taking the next step in going to look at what job offers me the best opportunity to improve my standing in the game, they dont choose clubs, that have no money, no administration, no resources, that sell their best players and in a heap of debt and in the middle of a cluster of points deductions, with a squad that needs serious investment. Its a toxic job at the moment. I think its wishful thinking and unicorn hoping, just picking up the next big thing - which as a big Villa Boas risk anyway.
So if we were interviewing for a job what competencies would we be looking for:
- An ability to build a club to progressive success
- An ability for 100s of millions to pass through the club on said success
- An ability to keep a team in the league on limited resources
- An ability to progress the team with said limited resources and achieve Europe
- An ability to offer stability and inbed a culture of competitive mentality
- An ability to maximise the resources at hand to achieve these goals
- An ability to blanace a squad based on said limited resources.
- An ability to manage a club with a lack of governance, administration and potential adverse conditions.
- An ability to manage a club is adverse circumstances, were points you earned could be taken away by a third party.
1) Does that sound to you like a job you would like if you were a manager trying to build a career for yourself, when there are handier ones and
2) Sean Dyche is nailing that competency based interview.
So what you describe in terms of a German manager, who takes a German club to midtable has relative success and achieves consistently then goes on to bigger clubs - is literally Sean Dyche and Burnley, QED.
Moyes was incredible to my mind, i said wed be relegated within the decade after he left, such is the job in circumstances i think he did with the tools given - i was wrong, but i think i was unlucky to be wrong, weve been blessed not to be relegated. So ultimately this argument often boils down to expectations. You will get the i have standards and high expectations because we are Everton - group, who just dont want to hear or know about the million cuts at the club and i wont accept the reason why we arent in Europe yesterday, there is no context or mitigation considered as to why we arent challenging for Europe - or whatever relative success. Then you have people who acknowledge the absolute skip fire those who run the club have gotten us into, were our existence is on the line - while the job of work of the manager is neigh on impossible and recoginsie a multi year rebuild - if in fact we survive the fire. Thats what it boils down to really. Expectation and a level of patience and fatigue of dealing with adversity.
I must of banged my head, and missed the fantastic opportunity we had to be miles away from relegation last season, we were shocking, how we stayed up without a Centre forward is absolutely beyond me - the manager earned serious collatoral and loyalty from me on that performance, but i think with any other manager we would be in Leicester's position now - would have gone down and be facing a PL charge in the Championship. Without question.
Last edited:
Comparing Everton to Real Madrid and Juve is like comparing a mini to a porsche. Everton are the struggling PL team we have to accept
