2023/24 Sean Dyche

[DualityNSNO]

You didn’t understand my point mate, when you can’t make points you simplify it with closed questions - it’s to cultivate popular opinion by simplifying it. It goes on a lot in this thread. Ignore points deductions, selling our best players, no administration, awful squad, - do you think he’s doing a bad job by getting beaten by Spurs, City or Utd - yes or no! You know my answer.

I haven’t read one compelling argument beyond rehotric and ripped Twitter stats to be honest. Nothing that cant be easily swept aside with ease. If it meant Everton would do better, I’d be very open minded. But no one’s even swayed me a degree. In fact I think most of the anti stuff here is bonkers.

But I don’t blame you, the neg side was like a ghost town until recently, so it’s the sensible thing to do, to try and cultivate, we know the story though, it changes again - because he’s good - same lads go missing and your admirably back in a talking shop, population you again! Though fair play, I admire the bottle as I’ve said.

So in short your point is to ignore the incremental improvement on out put from last season, I refer to the above, QED.

No, I get it - you missed mine: no one wants to answer to waffling on about every simple question. People have asked very, very simple questions like "are you happy with the form" and received a book in return.

it's not ripped stats, it's obvious things you can see with your own eyeballs - it's not ripped from anywhere we're bog standard going forward, decent in defence because we play basically 8 defenders, or can't score goals.

I'll ask you this VERY SIMPLE question: are you happy with Dyche's handling of the team and the form of the team, especially in the last 3 months. 10 words or less, or you get an F and have to repeat the exam

 

[DualityNSNO]

So past performance is an indication of future success mate. If he kept us up last season, with a worse squad, had us in form before a tough block of games, has clocked 31 points this season as manager, do we not think he has collateral for an expectation with a nice run coming to achieve what we need….

As my good friend @DualityNSNO would often ask my opinion on, it’s a Yes from me.

Missed that to be honest, soz x

Thanks, it took 1446 pages but we got a normal answer from you, finally!

I don't think past performances point to any kind of success other than Championship in 2 years, but at least an answer hahah

 

[pfim]

0.8 goals per game in over 300 games managed

Fellas has no idea how to be offensive

Tell that to Patterson's head.

 

[roy vernon]

So past performance is an indication of future success mate. If he kept us up last season, with a worse squad, had us in form before a tough block of games, has clocked 31 points this season as manager, do we not think he has collateral for an expectation with a nice run coming to achieve what we need….

As my good friend @DualityNSNO would often ask my opinion on, it’s a Yes from me.

The only possible vindication for playing such an ugly system is winning football matches, he hasn't, for three months. He is marginally better than the two whoppers who preceded him, but, there is a reason why he had been out of work for the best part of a year before coming here.

 

[Toffeepot]

I just find it incredible that we sell 150 mill in attacking talent in 18 odd months mate and lads wonder why we struggle to finish, that is far more likely to explain our finishing then say the manager forgetting to coach forwards - its honestly reaching. I get it lads are frustrated, anxious and if you have a bit of bias before he came then its easy to find confirmation. But there are massive limits at play that dont get fair airtime.

A good manager, builds from the bottom up, if you lack quality in the final third, you make sure you dont concede - hes turned us into a side with one of the best defensive records in the league.

Does he need to find goals, he sure does - but its incredible the chances we are missing simply incredible, we all see it. Its not like hes holding them back.

I really dont know why our expectations are so high, we've sold all our best players, we've been nailed with one and possibly two points deductions, we stayed up with one of the worst squads in PL history in my opinion last season, we have no administration at the club, we invest nothing despite brining in a lot.

What gives us a right to be higher in the table then the 31 points earned this season - i honestly don't get it or why we deserve it?

You might say ive low expectations and we are Everton and do the faux beat your chest thing - but it means nothing- we've done absolutely nothing in the running of the club to deserve anything more then where we are at the moment, you get nothing for the performance the club has posted since Moshiri took over - so why do we expect more, we are blessed to be in the league and its prob down to Dyche that we still are and have a fighting chance of remaining so, given what that pox Moshiri has done to the club.

A lot of good points there tbf

 

[toffeeblue9]

They're not subjective - all 3 of those things are literal facts.

We should have easily had points from at least 4 games more than we have, considering the situations - Luton at home should've been 3 points, we lost comfortably.
Villa both home and away - lucky to draw one of those games but I'll concede they're having a great season.
Fulham both home (L) and away (D).
Brighton at home we lead but had no idea how to actually go ahead and win a game so an early goal was the worst that could happen; late draw.
Brighton away - leading against the run of play which we had no right to do, only to once again collapse at the end in the 98th or something minute.
Wolves at home we experimented for some reason, played a striker outwide for a bit, a winger up front for 90 min, you know, as you do.
Wolves away we absolutely switched off and got beaten by 2 corners.

So even if you only count Brighton away, Luton home and Wolves (at least 1 draw, realistically we could've won or at least tried to win 1 of those games) - we're easily 7 points better.

He should deliver 3+ wins, because he put us in this position to have to even need to do that.

He should go either way if we want any bright future.

If anyone can argue whether you're right or not, they're not facts mate.

"He sets us up terribly" is not a fact, it's an opinion and is therefore by definition subjective.

You wrote a lot there, but you fell back into being specific about games. Again, I find myself agreeing with a lot of what you've said, but again all I care about really is that he improves overall to a reasonable degree on what was delivered last season. Focusing on individual games or subjective gripes just makes me attach less credence to someone's arguments.

 

[Toffeepot]

Tell that to Patterson's head.

he was aiming for Myko

 

[DualityNSNO]

"He sets us up terribly" is not a fact, it's an opinion and is therefore by definition subjective.

It is a fact - he sets us up to be ugly and play for draws, in any situation, and he always will, therefore making it not subjective. Everyone knows how we set up as it took about 4 games for teams to see through it and we've not win a game since, wonder why?

But no, that's not due to a terrible set up, it's xG/luck/point deduction/injuries/tea lady/curry was too spicy/there's a full moon, and not our setup, I get it.

You wrote a lot there, but you fell back into being specific about games.

Almost as if I got asked exactly what should he deliver in my opinion.

I'm not interested in any of that, all I care about is that he gets enough points that he could be considered do have done a reasonable job. If he can't, he goes. So with that in mind, what should he deliver?

Almost.

Also if anyone can argue - so you'd argue we've done well in the games I listed?! Ok then.

 

[CrimsonToffee]

That doesn’t invalidate my point that Dyche has to make this present squad work.

There’s literally no other choice.

This, exactly. I don't understand why arguments about Dyche's current performance are constantly - and seemingly only - countered by his apologists with waffle about "well, what about the points deduction" as if that excuses performances that are happening right now and that are not getting us out of the predicament we're in. When you're in a problematic situation, whining about how you got there (even if your whine is correct!) does absolutely nothing to get you out of it. It's fluff talk. Woe is me. All you can do is whatever it takes to get yourself out of the situation or else accept your fate.

So, there are two options: figure out how to get the team to score some goals and win games with what you have at hand or possibly get relegated. Whining about how unfair it is to be where we are due to outside influences without actually doing anything of substance to deal with it is the same as choosing option two. Same outcome with just a lot more talk.

Aside on all this talk about how many "chances" we create: total shots isn't quite the same thing as good chances created. We can have 20+ shots in a game, but if so many of them are Gana or Onana or Doucure or whoever flinging it up into the stands from 20-30 yards out, those can't exactly be a credit to the manager for "chances" created. Don't know where this idea that we're missing 4-5 sitters every single game has come from. Have Dom and Beto missed ones they should have scored? Absolutely! Not letting them off with no blame at all. But the description of the overall number of chances created lately has been inflated a bit to fit the narrative.

That's the worrying thing though, our form has fallen off a cliff and we are in a three months long run of relegation form. It would be a much more positive situation if we had had an horrendous start to then season and were now picking up points. Make no mistake, Dyche is doing anything but a good job, his limited system has been sussed and he is showing no signs that he has any idea what to do to correct it.

But we won four matches in a row in December! As if that bit of past performance is a better indicator of what the next few weeks should bring than the three months of relegation form that we're still in.

 

[toffeeblue9]

It is a fact - he sets us up to be ugly and play for draws, in any situation, and he always will, therefore making it not subjective. Everyone knows how we set up as it took about 4 games for teams to see through it and we've not win a game since, wonder why?

But no, that's not due to a terrible set up, it's xG/luck/point deduction/injuries/tea lady/curry was too spicy/there's a full moon, and not our setup, I get it.

Almost as if I got asked exactly what should he deliver in my opinion.

Almost.

Also if anyone can argue - so you'd argue we've done well in the games I listed?! Ok then.

It isn't a fact mate. I could say "he doesn't set us up terribly" and then point to our defensive record as being evidence of this and our underperformance of xG making it just that we've been unlucky. I don't necessarily think that, but that there's an alternative take on it makes it indisputably not a fact and 100% an opinion.

You're missing the point of me agreeing with most of what you're saying, but the bit we won't agree on is you being too woolly about what Dyche should achieve.

I would say 45 points or above is a reasonable return based on what the starting point was. What would you say?

 

[DualityNSNO]

It isn't a fact mate. I could say "he doesn't set us up terribly" and then point to our defensive record as being evidence of this and our underperformance of xG making it just that we've been unlucky. I don't necessarily think that, but that there's an alternative take on it makes it indisputably not a fact and 100% an opnion.

You're missing the point of me agreeing with most of what you're saying, but the bit we won't agree on is you being too woolly about what Dyche should achieve.

I would say 45 points or above is a reasonable return based on what the starting point was. What would you say?

That we're not getting them with this current play, setup or with Dyche.

 

[toffeeblue9]

That we're not getting them with this current play, setup or with Dyche.

A couple of months ago I'd have probably disagreed, but I'm now more in your camp than not. It does make me wonder though that you're not willing to put a number on it because you don't want the possibility of being vaulted if he achieves/surpasses your number.

 

[DualityNSNO]

A couple of months ago I'd have probably disagreed, but I'm now more in your camp than not. It does make me wonder though that you're not willing to put a number on it because you don't want the possibility of being vaulted if he achieves/surpasses your number.

I don't care about being vaulted - I've said several times I'll gladly eat all the humble pie if Dyche comes good this year, as I've been against this signing from day 1 tbh. Sadly so far I'm right and to be perfectly honest with you (all) - I hate being right about this, but here we are.

Put a number on what, our final points? As a side note - arsed about "but the deduction, we should count +6" - don't care, it's not what it says on the tin, so we count from what we have, which is currently 25 sadly.

What I absolutely 100% expect as the bare minimum is 4 wins - Burnley, Forest, Sheffield, Luton. Optimistically play for a win but not be too disappointed with a draw vs Brentford and Bournemouth, so let's say 2 points from those 2 games. The rest a good display and maybe spring a surprise - we should have enough to get one over the line against Newcastle and Chelsea but that's maybe wishful thinking as they have players with great individual quality which we can't deal with often.

So, as it's a number you want - 39 or more should be how many we end up with, with the game against Arsenal being irrelevant as we should already be okay until then - most of the teams we play are also in the same fight so we're taking points off them in my calculation

All of the above said - we'll play for 9 draws.

 

[Neiler]

No, I get it - you missed mine: no one wants to answer to waffling on about every simple question. People have asked very, very simple questions like "are you happy with the form" and received a book in return.

it's not ripped stats, it's obvious things you can see with your own eyeballs - it's not ripped from anywhere we're bog standard going forward, decent in defence because we play basically 8 defenders, or can't score goals.

I'll ask you this VERY SIMPLE question: are you happy with Dyche's handling of the team and the form of the team, especially in the last 3 months. 10 words or less, or you get an F and have to repeat the exam

I’m not happy with result, but performences and form very happy. Will you let me off with 11.

 

[bicycleheader]

I don't care about being vaulted - I've said several times I'll gladly eat all the humble pie if Dyche comes good this year, as I've been against this signing from day 1 tbh. Sadly so far I'm right and to be perfectly honest with you (all) - I hate being right about this, but here we are.

Put a number on what, our final points? As a side note - arsed about "but the deduction, we should count +6" - don't care, it's not what it says on the tin, so we count from what we have, which is currently 25 sadly.

What I absolutely 100% expect as the bare minimum is 4 wins - Burnley, Forest, Sheffield, Luton. Optimistically play for a win but not be too disappointed with a draw vs Brentford and Bournemouth, so let's say 2 points from those 2 games. The rest a good display and maybe spring a surprise - we should have enough to get one over the line against Newcastle and Chelsea but that's maybe wishful thinking as they have players with great individual quality which we can't deal with often.

So, as it's a number you want - 39 or more should be how many we end up with, with the game against Arsenal being irrelevant as we should already be okay until then - most of the teams we play are also in the same fight so we're taking points off them in my calculation

All of the above said - we'll play for 9 draws.

I don't care about being vaulted - I've said several times I'll gladly eat all the humble pie if Dyche comes good this year, as I've been against this signing from day 1 tbh. Sadly so far I'm right and to be perfectly honest with you (all) - I hate being right about this, but here we are.

Put a number on what, our final points? As a side note - arsed about "but the deduction, we should count +6" - don't care, it's not what it says on the tin, so we count from what we have, which is currently 25 sadly.

What I absolutely 100% expect as the bare minimum is 4 wins - Burnley, Forest, Sheffield, Luton. Optimistically play for a win but not be too disappointed with a draw vs Brentford and Bournemouth, so let's say 2 points from those 2 games. The rest a good display and maybe spring a surprise - we should have enough to get one over the line against Newcastle and Chelsea but that's maybe wishful thinking as they have players with great individual quality which we can't deal with often.

So, as it's a number you want - 39 or more should be how many we end up with, with the game against Arsenal being irrelevant as we should already be okay until then - most of the teams we play are also in the same fight so we're taking points off them in my calculation

All of the above said - we'll play for 9 draws.

I think they are trying to ask you what points total would you have expected at start of season, to how many you think we should get from here or should have gotten based on what we saw in the games so far

Might be wrong