Ronald Koeman discussion

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

And hey, everyone knows that I wanted Loew as Everton manager, so I'm hardly a massive Koeman apologist, but I believe in giving him time

 

[Mountfield1985]

Agreed

Dave regularly likes talk down the quality of the football that last season under Moyes (To his own detriment really because it's a massive blind spot on his behalf that hurts his overall argument) but there were times during it when we played very well indeed

To me, it was probably one of the most consistently good Everton sides I can remember watching

Absolutely. We were superb that season, the Pienaar/Baines combo at their very peak. Played some brilliant stuff at Goodison, I think our home record was something ridiculous like W13 D5 L1.

 

[davek]

Why though?

Why does football have to be anything?

There's a clearly defined set of rules for football, and long play is well within those rules

There is nothing written saying football has to be played in any set manner, merely that the laws of the game are observed

It is simply a matter of personal preference

Technical football has no greater right of place in the game than route one does

None at all

There is nothing wrong with direct football and no football club is under any obligation to play it. You simply don't like it, which is your right, but that doesn't mean it's wrong when others do like it or when a team plays it

It's why it's called foot-ball mate. The clue is in the name.

There's no football I want to watch that doesn't have an aerial element to it. I appreciate great wing play and balls into the box for a forward to head. I just dont want to see it at the expense of the construction of passing football though. The game is built on combination play. If it weren't it'd be a rugby up and under sport with absolutely no guile to it whatsoever.

I dont want to evangelise or persuade you otherwise, my point is that the traditions of football at this club (and most certainly when we were the best in the land) has been to adopt an overwhelmingly technical game that also utilised an effective when necessary direct way of playing. That's the tradition. That's what we need to aspire to, imo.

 

[davek]

Agreed

Dave regularly likes talk down the quality of the football that last season under Moyes (To his own detriment really because it's a massive blind spot on his behalf that hurts his overall argument) but there were times during it when we played very well indeed

To me, it was probably one of the most consistently good Everton sides I can remember watching

Do me a favour Mikey. That season is not ancient history and we all have clear enough memories of it to remember that there were half a dozen performances when Moyes allowed them off the leash to play a bit. The rest was the usual Moyes' cautious game. We only needed to suffer one or two reversals for Moyes to pull up the drawbridge again and go for the favoured method of shuffling the ball up to the half way line then punting a long diagonal to the edge of the opposition box to get a head on and pick up the second ball...that was Moyes signature play.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

Do me a favour Mikey. That season is not ancient history and we all have clear enough memories of it to remember that there were half a dozen performances when Moyes allowed them off the leash to play a bit. The rest was the usual Moyes' cautious game. We only needed to suffer one or two reversals for Moyes to pull up the drawbridge again and go for the favoured method of shuffling the ball up to the half way line then punting a long diagonal to the edge of the opposition box to get a head on and pick up the second ball...that was Moyes signature play.

Come off it Dave

Your refusal to accept the truth regards that season is a constant black mark to your name

Simply fess up and admit what pretty much everyone else on here, even people who don't like Moyes, accept

Give him his due credit regards 12/13 and stop denying it, you're only making a rod for your own back and looking silly in the process

As far as your post prior to this goes, we'll simply have to accept that we like different things in that regard and have different feelings to the game of football. Nothing wrong with that, there is no "right" answer in that regard if you ask me. It's purely subjective

 

[davek]

Its not. Football can be played anyway a team wants to play. That's the beauty of it. I love a proper clash between a team who likes to pass it around and a team who likes to play "industrial" football.

I also find long ball to be much more entertaining than the tika taka nonsense that seems to have resulted in football almost eating itself.

Some of our football this season has been rubbish though. I get playing long ball with players who can do well with that kind of set up. We dont have those players so its all a bit strange to me.

There's clearly a relationship between playing the ball on the deck and being successful. How many of the top teams internationally or at club level have ever had an up and under game? There aren't any I can think of. And if there are examples they are few and far between. That's because football is a game that requires guile and artistry to be successful. It isn't snobbery or idealism on my part to want to play a certain way, it is the only way of playing that is winning football for the vast majority of the time.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

There's clearly a relationship between playing the ball on the deck and being successful. How many of the top teams internationally or at club level have ever had an up and under game? There aren't any I can think of. And if there are examples they are few and far between. That's because football is a game that requires guile and artistry to be successful. It isn't snobbery or idealism on my part to want to play a certain way, it is the only way of playing that is winning football for the vast majority of the time.

The best teams combine both direct and technical play, see our current World Champions, whose manager I would have here in a heartbeat

There's a reason it won the day in 2014 and not Spain's more rigid approach. The game has changed and that style has been sussed out. See Conte handing Spain their arse at Euro 2016

 

[Papa Shango]

There's clearly a relationship between playing the ball on the deck and being successful. How many of the top teams internationally or at club level have ever had an up and under game? There aren't any I can think of. And if there are examples they are few and far between. That's because football is a game that requires guile and artistry to be successful. It isn't snobbery or idealism on my part to want to play a certain way, it is the only way of playing that is winning football for the vast majority of the time.

Dunno about that. Maybe for sustained success but most successful teams will have a good middle ground of the two. Just hoofing it up like we do now will never work long term.

 

[davek]

Come off it Dave

Your refusal to accept the truth regards that season is a constant black mark to your name

Simply fess up and admit what pretty much everyone else on here, even people who don't like Moyes, accept

Give him his due credit regards 12/13 and stop denying it, you're only making a rod for your own back and looking silly in the process

As far as your post prior to this goes, we'll simply have to accept that we like different things in that regard and have different feelings to the game of football. Nothing wrong with that, there is no "right" answer in that regard if you ask me. It's purely subjective

On Moyes: I have ALWAYS credited him with stabilising this club. ALWAYS. There is no blind spot where he is concerned with me. He was not a very bright manager though. His coaching was primitive and the football by and large was poor (though he looks better by the day in comparison with the muck served up by this current manager).

I think it;s a great shame we didn't pounce for Flavre and follow up the interest he had in us. He is a good coach and the type we needed to crack on.

Next manager in HAS to be the right one or we will be snookered for years to come.

 

[Khalekan]

Do me a favour Mikey. That season is not ancient history and we all have clear enough memories of it to remember that there were half a dozen performances when Moyes allowed them off the leash to play a bit. The rest was the usual Moyes' cautious game. We only needed to suffer one or two reversals for Moyes to pull up the drawbridge again and go for the favoured method of shuffling the ball up to the half way line then punting a long diagonal to the edge of the opposition box to get a head on and pick up the second ball...that was Moyes signature play.

Indeed.

Even in that final season, we lost points at Norwich and other places by easing off the pedal when we were well on top, subbing a forward in favour of a defender and paying the price.

Ever one to look on the bright side, the thing that impressed me with our last league victory, against Saints, was the way we kicked on after going a goal up.

I am hoping to see more if that in the coming, pressure free, months so we might have a discernible style or ethos under Koeman come August and the resumption of more meaningful games.

 

[davek]

Dunno about that. Maybe for sustained success but most successful teams will have a good middle ground of the two. Just hoofing it up like we do now will never work long term.

Not in my opinion mate. Remember the way Spain used Llorente to to try and break a deadlock, or the way Arsenal use Giroud to good effect against different teams? That's the way a football team should use a more direct game. It shouldn't be the modus operandi of a club - to develop that game as a way of playing all told.

Best Euro teams ever at international and club level were all technically gifted and pioneers:

Brazil
Holland
Hungary

Real Madrid
Barcelona
AC Milan

 

[davek]

Ever one to look on the bright side, the thing that impressed me with our last league victory, against Saints, was the way we kicked on after going a goal up.

I am hoping to see more if that in the coming, pressure free, months so we might have a discernible style or ethos under Koeman come August and the resumption of more meaningful games.

I haven't written him off totally in that respect. I do think he hears the background chatter about the poor quality he's served up thus far and that he might feel the need to go in another direction by playing to feet out from the back a lot more. It'll be interesting to see how he replaces defenders in that respect. VVD would be a huge step in the right direction football wise.

 

[MikeH72]

Teams with the best players in playing the best football shocker.

We are Everton. We have not got anywhere near the standard of player required to play scintillating Barcelona-style football and sweep everyone aside. Our last manager tried that and took us from 5th to 13th, so let's bin that idea.

 

[larrygobfiend]

I haven't written him off totally in that respect. I do think he hears the background chatter about the poor quality he's served up thus far and that he might feel the need to go in another direction by playing to feet out from the back a lot more. It'll be interesting to see how he replaces defenders in that respect. VVD would be a huge step in the right direction football wise.

If only your boy Bobby snapped him up when he was dirt cheap, eh?!

 

[Blue Cheese]

One question for the folk complaining that Koeman's team has been too direct

Have you guys and gals ever sat back to consider that perhaps some people actually like that style of football?

It seems to me like you think there's only one acceptable way to play football and that's in an aesthetic manner with lots of technical skill and passing, but have you ever stopped to think that not everyone agrees with you?

You seem to be operating under the assumption that your stance is objective as opposed to subjective

Different people like different things

I remember seeing comments during the Martinez years that our fan base was in need of "re-education" and had to be "weaned" from more direct football

Well perhaps people don't need to be weaned and perhaps they don't want to be re-educated? Maybe they just want to like what they like without the tactical nazis stomping on them for enjoying a nice cross into the box for the target man?

For me, I don't mind a bit of direct route one stuff on occasion. Would I want it all the time? No, probably not. But would I like it if we played on the whole more direct with a dash of flair here and there? Yes, I probably would

I think too many people are labouring under the misconception that lots of people want loads of passing and step overs. As many people as there is who go to the match to be entertained first and see the team win second, there's as many, if not more, who simply want to go and see their team win. And if they have to win ugly, then so be it

Nothing wrong in being direct, direct can still be exciting if done right. Aimless hoofing though, I doubt anybody enjoys that, absolutely nobody so there is a difference.