Recognising problems and dealing with them...

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

Shouldn't rugby be in The ale house threads?

 

[ToffeeTim]

I get that Koeman can and needs to do more, but not sure comparing him to the best coach of an entirely different sport is particularly helpful.

I love rugby, not as much as football obviously, but I really enjoy it nonetheless. It's currently a much more physical game. Not sure there's any real crossover these days. Clive Woodward won a world cup but was entirely out of his depth at Southampton.

 

[blueboy1945]

@orly is in tip top wind up form today!

 

[orly]

@orly is in tip top wind up form today!

Honestly mate, all I'm trying to do is keep the peace.

I'm like the GOT version of Robocop (not the recent iteration, the classic movies)

 

[The Esk]

Having just watched England beat Australia at Twickenham after a decidedly dodgy first forty minutes, I have to say that Eddie Jones seems to have exactly what is needed in terms of recognising problems and dealing with them.

England started poorly, got back into it, but trailed 13-16 at half time.
Second half, they destroyed Australia and won 37-21 to complete their 14th straight win and a perfect 13 from 13 since Jones took over the debacle that was the Rugby World Cup.

The kind of coaching, tactical and motivational skills that Eddie Jones appears to have in abundance seem to me to be exactly what Everton appear to be (stunningly and worryingly) short of at present.

I sincerely hope that our showing against Manure tomorrow demonstrates that Mr.Koeman has such similar qualities, as a lack-lustre performance aka those of Chelsea away, Swansea at home and Southampton away will go down like the proverbial lead balloon in my eyes.

If we don't start well or things are going against us, I want to see the kind of decision making that Mr.Koeman made at West Brom and Sunderland that reaped rewards and earned victories.

Beating Manure would be great, beating them in style would be even better...
Come on Mr.Koeman, show us and give us what we want to see.

One thing that footballers in general and Everton specifically seem to lack or have weakness in is self discipline and mental strength. It's my view that football is miles behind other sports in terms of mental preparation and the ability to be disciplined and stick to game plans or indeed change game plans as and when required.

The teams that do well often display those characteristics - Manchester United through the strength of personality of Ferguson did it for years, he developed that characteristic in many of his players. I'd even say our winning side of the mid-80's whilst full of decent players, became winners by the personalities on the pitch (particularly Southall, Ratcliffe, Reid and Gray) combined with the man management of Howard Kendall. Clough had it in a similar way to Ferguson before his demons took control.

Does Koeman have it? Which of our players has it?

 

[silent bob]

Does Koeman have it? Which of our players has it?

Koeman, only time will tell. Players, on the evidence of last two seaons and this one so far, absolutely none.

 

[ToffeeTim]

One thing that footballers in general and Everton specifically seem to lack or have weakness in is self discipline and mental strength. It's my view that football is miles behind other sports in terms of mental preparation and the ability to be disciplined and stick to game plans or indeed change game plans as and when required.

The teams that do well often display those characteristics - Manchester United through the strength of personality of Ferguson did it for years, he developed that characteristic in many of his players. I'd even say our winning side of the mid-80's whilst full of decent players, became winners by the personalities on the pitch (particularly Southall, Ratcliffe, Reid and Gray) combined with the man management of Howard Kendall. Clough had it in a similar way to Ferguson before his demons took control.

Does Koeman have it? Which of our players has it?

Mental strength comes in various forms in different sports. The mentality needed in rugby is entirely different in football. Mental strength in Rugby is to have the strength of character to say make a hit on a guy who maybe is 25kg heavier than you, you're knackered, and your aching from the previous 75 mins. Do you want to bring this guy to the ground?

Whereas in football it's more having the courage to trust your ability skill wise. Not saying skill isn't important in rugby as it obviously is, but it's more important in football. It's a question of wanting to get on the ball, do you believe you're the person on the field who can take the risk, or improvise the important moment for your team. Footballers have a more mental battle in terms of belief, whereas in rugby it's more courage.

Anyways, as a club I think we lack the strength of character to get on the ball and have a go at making something happy. We have players who want to hide and drift through a game, even when we are drifitng to defeat. This kind of mentality is akin to shirking responsibility on making a tackle on rugby. But it's not quite the same. I don't think it's lack of say courage when faced with potential physical pain. It's purely lack of self belief in our ability and mental scarring from previous failure with Everton. It's not something that will change quickly, and I fear only change of personnel can address the issue.

 

[roydo]

One thing that footballers in general and Everton specifically seem to lack or have weakness in is self discipline and mental strength. It's my view that football is miles behind other sports in terms of mental preparation and the ability to be disciplined and stick to game plans or indeed change game plans as and when required.

Interesting point.

Football is probably the only team sport where the team dont actually take charge of the conditions the game offers up. The mantra, "hope the manager changes it at halftime" "What about a sub?" sort of supports that.

A top Rugby or Cricket team have the ability, and licence, to actually make changes themselves during a game. Footballers, everywhere, wait for someone else to do it, with a few rare exceptions. Roy Keane in Uniteds CL semi away at Juventus springs to mind.

 

[ToffeeTim]

Interesting point.

Football is probably the only team sport where the team dont actually take charge of the conditions the game offers up. The mantra, "hope the manager changes it at halftime" "What about a sub?" sort of supports that.

A top Rugby or Cricket team have the ability, and licence, to actually make changes themselves during a game. Footballers, everywhere, wait for someone else to do it, with a few rare exceptions. Roy Keane in Uniteds CL semi away at Juventus springs to mind.

And that is because football at the highest level, is much more tactical than rugby, not less so.

Players feel they need spoon fed by the manager. Not saying it's a good thing. Just the way I see it.

 

[The Esk]

And that is because football at the highest level, is much more tactical than rugby, not less so.

I doubt that very much mate.

 

[roydo]

And that is because football at the highest level, is much more tactical than rugby, not less so.

Players feel they need spoon fed by the manager. Not saying it's a good thing. Just the way I see it.

Dont agree with that. Just by the fact that Rugby is such a set piece dominated game, and that the whole side attacks, and defends, to usually predetermined routines and calls.

The fluidity and chaos that football serves up is the antithisis of a tactical dominated game.

 

[ToffeeTim]

I doubt that very much mate.

I feel it is the case. Rugby is a relatively simply executed game bar the breakdown. Go forwards, then go wide. The formation is set 1-15. You can't be particularly fluid. I think football is much more tactical.

 

[catcherintherye]

One thing that footballers in general and Everton specifically seem to lack or have weakness in is self discipline and mental strength. It's my view that football is miles behind other sports in terms of mental preparation and the ability to be disciplined and stick to game plans or indeed change game plans as and when required.

The teams that do well often display those characteristics - Manchester United through the strength of personality of Ferguson did it for years, he developed that characteristic in many of his players. I'd even say our winning side of the mid-80's whilst full of decent players, became winners by the personalities on the pitch (particularly Southall, Ratcliffe, Reid and Gray) combined with the man management of Howard Kendall. Clough had it in a similar way to Ferguson before his demons took control.

Does Koeman have it? Which of our players has it?

Excellent post mate. To answer the last two questions and pose one of my own; Koeman definitely is a winner. Nobody could look at what he has done in the game and draw another conclusion. As for our squad, very few have that quality. In many ways I think this is why as a fanbase we find Koeman unusual and challenging.

Here's the rub though, being a winner doesn't automatically mean you motivate others to follow in your footsteps. I would advise anybody to read Fergusons book on management. He wasn't a great player and I think that probably helped him in how to deal with players, and understand their complexities.

 

[The Esk]

Here's the rub though, being a winner doesn't automatically mean you motivate others to follow in your footsteps. I would advise anybody to read Fergusons book on management.

I sent Ferguson's book on management "Leading" to my top 50 clients, I thought it was that good

 

[The Esk]

I feel it is the case. Rugby is a relatively simply executed game bar the breakdown. Go forwards, then go wide. The formation is set 1-15. You can't be particularly fluid. I think football is much more tactical.

I think we'll have to disagree on this one mate, top level rugby is an incredibly tactical game.