Real Madrid v Barcelona

[chicoazul]

He's a smashing little footballer. As good as any player in the last ten years, I'd say anyway.

Zidane?

 

[RFUS]

He's in that company, mate..and they weren't too shabby if you saw them play and remember them.

Still a long way to go until immortalised as a football God with Diego, Pele and Cruyff.

You're quite right. If he went downhill now like Ronaldihno and Owen, for example, he'd not go down as a true great for me. That said he's already accomplished 10x more than the two mentioned.

But yes, it's the fact that he just keeps getting better and better, and he's not getting injured or getting into anything that detracts from his football. The potential to be the best of them all is right there, and he seems to want to fulfil it.

 

[Neiler]

He's in that company, mate..and they weren't too shabby if you saw them play and remember them.

Still a long way to go until immortalised as a football God with Diego, Pele and Cruyff.

Not so sure mate, maybe a bit to go for Pele who did it over a whole career, but hes defo in Deigo and Johan territory.

As for Hagi, Stoitkov, Baggio, they were great players in their prime, at 23 they were largely insignificant, they couldnt touch Messis overall game, attitude etc.

Gulliet was better then those 3 BTW as was Van Basten, Ronaldo, Matteiues.

 

[chicoazul]

The potential to be the best of them all is right there, and he seems to want to fulfil it.

Agreed. If he keeps on developing his could be remembered as one of the greats.

 

[Jamo Martinez]

The past few weeks have instilled a complete hatred of Barcelona in me, but ffs Messi is out of this world. I don't care who he plays for. Maradona had the 80s, Zidane the 90s and Ronaldihno and Henry probably had the best of the early 00s, but now the late 00s/10s belong to Messi. He craps all over the last two, and although a different kind of player I'd say he's going to be even better than Zizou (even though Zidane is still my favourite) and if he continues the way he is doing he will surely surpass Maradona, too.

I'm talking in terms of the individual here, not trophy hauls. Michael Carrick has a champions league medal ffs.[/QUOTE]
Christian Karembeu has 2 CL winner's medals, A world cup winners medal and a European Nations cup winner's medal. According to some people's criteria on here that makes him better than Messi, Cruyff, Best, Platini, Zico and a whole host of others

 

[EFCNIK]

Why surprised? He's easily good enough to be included in that company.

Read what I quoted you as saying mwhahahahahaha

 

[tsubaki]

52 goals, and 25 assists this season and still playng - thats just simply unbelievable.

Sixty goals in a season for a club side is on, as is thirty assists. He is ludicrously gifted, almost an idiot savant of football and its difficult to see how he can top this season (though lets not forget followed a season last year when he was the best player in the world).

 

[Jamo Martinez]

Next season he'll go through a whole season without letting the ball touch the ground

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Pfft. Kerlon been there done that.

 

[davek]

Zidane?

Ok, he maybe not as good as Zidane yet.

He's on his way though.

All he needs to do now is make a mark on the international stage. It's one thing beating Madrid and United and Arsenal in big CL games once every two seasons or knocking five past Racing Santander and Real Betis. When he does the heavy lifting in an Argentina shirt on the biggest stage of all and wins the Coupe du Monde he's worth a shout for inclusion in football's Valhalla.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The thing is though, you look at teams like Real and Barca, and in my opinion they are stronger than international sides. If you compare the Barca lineup (for instance) to the Spanish one that won the World Cup, in my opinion only the goalkeeper is stronger man for man.

I think the Champions League is a higher quality tournament than the World Cup. You have better quality teams on display (none of the lesser nations present), the players are much more familiar with each other so play to a better standard (see England as a case in point), and as the tournament is during the season the players are generally fresher.

Historically the WC was always the stronger tournament and therefore rightly the pinnacle of a players career, but I think now the CL has overtaken it.

 

[davek]

The thing is though, you look at teams like Real and Barca, and in my opinion they are stronger than international sides. If you compare the Barca lineup (for instance) to the Spanish one that won the World Cup, in my opinion only the goalkeeper is stronger man for man.

Which - if true, and it's not - sort of detracts from a players achievements at club level...if he has all that fire power with him knocking over United and Arsenal in CL Finals isn't that big a deal is it?

I think the Champions League is a higher quality tournament than the World Cup. You have better quality teams on display (none of the lesser nations present), the players are much more familiar with each other so play to a better standard (see England as a case in point), and as the tournament is during the season the players are generally fresher.

Historically the WC was always the stronger tournament and therefore rightly the pinnacle of a players career, but I think now the CL has overtaken it.

I read this argument on here last summer by TxB and it was the most hopeless argument I've ever read from a top poster who knows his stuff. It's complete and utter nonsense to suggest the Wc is inferior to the CL. Leaving aside the fact for a minute that the CL isn't even as good as the Copa Libertadores if world championship results are any guideline, the top four national teams in any WC would destroy any top four CL team. Spain, for the sake of argument, are Barca+ - therefore superior by definition. There's no other team in the world that could even mount a challenge to Brazil/Italy/Argentina/Spain.

It's the most spurious way of elevating Messi's stature.

I'm afraid there's no short cuts to football greatness, Bruce. Messi will just have to do it the hard way.

 

[RFUS]

I read this argument on here last summer by TxB and it was the most hopeless argument I've ever read from a top poster who knows his stuff. It's complete and utter nonsense to suggest the Wc is inferior to the CL. Leaving aside the fact for a minute that the CL isn't even as good as the Copa Libertadores if world championship results are any guideline, the top four national teams in any WC would destroy any top four CL team. Spain, for the sake of argument, are Barca+ - therefore superior by definition. There's no other team in the world that could even mount a challenge to Brazil/Italy/Argentina/Spain.

It's the most spurious way of elevating Messi's stature.

I'm afraid there's no short cuts to football greatness, Bruce. Messi will just have to do it the hard way.

Barca are Spain, but with a better RB and the best player in the world added. You're mental, mate.

As for Argentina? Seriously? Madrid or Barca couldn't beat Argentina? Besides their strike force, they're not that special. Italy... Jesus Christ. Did you watch the last world cup? New Zealand drew with them... so then, are New Zealand better than Madrid, United, Chelsea...?

I like you DK, you often talk a lot of sense, but damn... in this case, you're beggaring belief.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

For the sake of argument, here are the respective lineups from this years CL semi-finals + the last WC semi-finals.

Spain v Barca
[1] Iker CASILLAS (GK)(C) Valdes CASILLAS WINS
[15] SERGIO RAMOS Alves ALVES WINS (imo)
[3] Gerard PIQUE Pique draw
[5] Carles PUYOL Puyol draw
[11] Joan CAPDEVILA Abidal I would say a draw
[6] Andres INIESTA Iniesta draw
[7] David VILLA (-81') Villa draw
[8] XAVI Xavi draw
[14] XABI ALONSO (-93') Messi MESSI WINS
[16] Sergio BUSQUETS Busquets draw
[18] PEDRO (-86') Pedro draw

So in that match-up Barca win (albeit just)

Germany v Real
[1] Manuel NEUER (GK) Casillas CASILLAS WINS (just)
[3] Arne FRIEDRICH Ramos RAMOS WINS
[6] Sami KHEDIRA (-81') Khedira draw
[7] Bastian SCHWEINSTEIGER Alonso draw
[8] Mesut OEZIL Oezil draw
[10] Lukas PODOLSKI Ronaldo RONALDO WINS
[11] Miroslav KLOSE Higuain draw
[15] Piotr TROCHOWSKI (-62') di Maria DI MARIA WINS
[16] Philipp LAHM (C) Marcelo LAHM WINS
[17] Per MERTESACKER Carvalho CARVALHO WINS
[20] Jerome BOATENG (-52') Pepe draw

In that match up Real Madrid win.

No time to do the others, but you get the idea. You also have to look at England, where the sum is somewhat less than the value of its parts to see the value derived from playing together regularly, so for me the quality of play is much better in the CL than the WC.

 

[davek]

Barca are Spain, but with a better RB and the best player in the world added. You're mental, mate.

As for Argentina? Seriously? Madrid or Barca couldn't beat Argentina? Besides their strike force, they're not that special. Italy... Jesus Christ. Did you watch the last world cup? New Zealand drew with them... so then, are New Zealand better than Madrid, United, Chelsea...?

I like you DK, you often talk a lot of sense, but damn... in this case, you're beggaring belief.

You cant have your cake and eat it too, mate: you cant claim him for Barcelona and deny him his national shirt. Messi is part of the Argentina squad that's studded with stars from the top clubs in Europe (including Madrid and Barcelona). They'd dispatch the CL's top four no problem. Brazil likewise and Spain with the best of Barcelona and Madrid and players to choose from plus Torres, David Villa, Fabregas, Reina etc etc would see off allcomers.

By the way, this is all leaving out the extra motivation players get from playing for the national team in big competitions like the WC.

It's just not even up for debate: the WC beats the CL in every conceivable way. Dont believe the hype about the CL. It's pretty rubbish apart from two or three ties each season and the quality below the top two/three squads is pretty ropey.