Rapid-Transit Rail Guarantees Success for EFC, LFC and Arena

[edge]

that canada dock line was tested and infact had a train carrying councilors run up and down it from edge hill about two years ago, its development was linked in with liverpools new ground if it goes over sixty thousand they have to commit to building a station at cherry lane, liverpool as you have seen have lowerd the new capacity to just below the figure , dont think its something they want to pay out for the sums wernt that high either.
The loop line that goes up towards norris green /west derby cant be used as the council have allowed it to be build on for about 150 meters, not the best planning there.
As for a link to the airport , it was looked into when they opened south parkway, it isnt that long that need linking in ,as a track along side the old ford factory ran most of the way but was deemed as to expensive cant see any movement at all in the rail infastucture in merseyside for a long time, they also looked at opening the line down to brunswick from edge hill the engineers said the tunnels ect are fine they were repaired in the seventys despite not being used for far longer than that, thats not going to get done either if i was putting money on it the canada dock line would be favorite to get done ,if merseytravel get control of there own infastucture, something thats been muted for a few years , as it would open up there network to the mainline

 

[Inner-city]

In science scepticism is the default position. And Everton is the school of science right?

Bad analogy.

And why it may be great throwing round £100's million ... this is the real world and it's not as simple as saying "you negotiate viable terms" when getting loans.

That is what they do..and how all these stadia were built.

You'd think 2008 never happened!

Money is still available. They will lend to good projects that have sound projections. Using the ingredients that Arsenal used and they will line up. They need the cast-iron plan - the banker will probably be a rugby fan.

 

[Inner-city]

that canada dock line was tested and infact had a train carrying councilors run up and down it from edge hill about two years ago, its development was linked in with liverpools new ground if it goes over sixty thousand they have to commit to building a station at cherry lane, liverpool as you have seen have lowerd the new capacity to just below the figure , dont think its something they want to pay out for the sums wernt that high either.
The loop line that goes up towards norris green /west derby cant be used as the council have allowed it to be build on for about 150 meters, not the best planning there.

The line is mothballed. The only part any substantial building is on is the access road to the loading bay of Sainsburys at Knotty Ash. This can be reclaimed quite easily. You may find in the Planning Permission there is a clause to retake the small road if needed.

The bridges are checked periodically by law. All are in place.

Have look at what is protected:
Liverpool core strategy 2010
Now, you obviously think a recommissioned rapid-transit line with two clubs on it with stations shifting 30-40,000 per hours is a great thing?

As for a link to the airport , it was looked into when they opened south parkway, it isnt that long that need linking in ,as a track along side the old ford factory ran most of the way but was deemed as to expensive cant see any movement at all in the rail infastucture in merseyside for a long time, they also looked at opening the line down to brunswick from edge hill the engineers said the tunnels ect are fine they were repaired in the seventys despite not being used for far longer than that, thats not going to get done either if i was putting money on it the canada dock line would be favorite to get done ,if merseytravel get control of there own infastucture, something thats been muted for a few years , as it would open up there network to the mainline

You mean the 1829 Wapping tunnel from Edge Hill to Wapping, not Brunswick. The first ever tunnel bored under a metropolis. This was to branch into Central and may still happen - another mothballed project.

If Merseytravel get their way the metro would go and useless trams installed. The have an obsession with trams because HMG cancelled the plans as they were useless spending £80 for sweet FA. They just want to save face. They care nothing of the city and what will promote it - the metro, they do do in all major cities..

The airport? They have talked about tram-trains down the boulevards - a daft idea. The best is across fields from Halewood at the side of EFC's Finch Farm. The Finch Farm site is also a great stadium site. Look at this for the best way for serving the airport, and a stadium at Finch Farm:
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/watercity/Merseyrail-Extensions.html

Above: Ignore the circle. This is an idea to serve the airport - and Finch Farm. Finch Farm is just south of the Liverpool-Manchester line just to the right of the light green line. Merseyrail could extend the Northern Line to just past Halewood station and have a station built at the Everton FC stadium - on a green field. Park & Ride facilities for the Arena and Liverpool FC could be here, with great access to the M57 and M62. Again many birds killed with one stone.

So, one club at Long Lane or Walton Hall Park and one at Finch Farm (in Knowsley), either end of the Outer Loop Line.

The Canada Dock Branch Line looks more likely to be brought back, but it is far from the best ,line, with is the Outer Loop - which adds to the city more. The Dept f Transport, also went on the train trip on the branch line.

If we are going to do it, is best to do it right and get the best.

 

[Inner-city]

70% of Evertonians drive to Goodison according to the report I saw),

With all that residents parking I doubt it. But that is irrelevant to the needs of new stadium.

First of all yes we are footy obsessed, mate.

To the point all other doesn't matter with some. Only one has said a new metro line would benefit the city -unless you do not live in the city and don't care.

I would LOVE to see a new stadium. But it just isn't happening anytime soon, unless SOMETHING changes.

When it happens we don't know. But to get things changed you need the ideas and then people on board to push them through. Being negative and shrugging your shoulders get nothing done. Be positive.

"Of course he will want his money back. But by making sure the club does well he can get his money back". That is the vaguest statement I've heard in a while.

There is nothing vague about it at all. It is quite clear.

"You missed a lot. You missed that others do it without any problems at all. Are you always so negative?" Who are all the OTHERS that are doing this with no problem at all? Arsenal did it because they're Arsenal.

All those who built stadia - who else? Arsenal did it because they're Arsenal Now that vague!

I'm not negative, I'm just being realistic. I hope I'm wrong mate I really do. I think you are right about thinking about the logistics of where to put a stadium. You've put a lot of thought into it. Well done. But unless the city gets on board and bends over backwards to help EFC and quit favoring LFC, then it will take a while longer.

It is best to keep to facts. When giving opinions, then have the reasoning heavily factually based. It is clear you are speculating highly about what is worth what. Lighten up and be positive. I know that Evertonians have been let down many times and this attitude is rife. Oddballs like the KEIOC do not help either. But all is there if all parties get together. BTW, members of the Civic Society like the idea and want to canvass MPs ets, to get it rolling.

 

[edge]

i would love them to have the transport system we deserve, not to sure the trams were a good idea, the routes if anything would have coursed mayhem with th traffic the east lancs is a nightmare anyway without trams up and down, the train system getting expanded would be far better in my view, its needed in a modern city for investment to come sadly it not happenning anytime soon, be good if it did though and a more joined up thinking from all coscerned would help matters we seem to lack that on merseyside

 

[Inner-city]

i would love them to have the transport system we deserve, not to sure the trams were a good idea, the routes if anything would have coursed mayhem with th traffic the east lancs is a nightmare anyway without trams up and down, the train system getting expanded would be far better in my view, its needed in a modern city for investment to come sadly it not happenning anytime soon, be good if it did though and a more joined up thinking from all coscerned would help matters we seem to lack that on merseyside

The trams were a totally daft idea. HMG were giving money out for them, so Merseytravel went for trams to justify their existence. Manchester wanted an underground/metro but it was too expensive, so went for trams. Liverpool has an underground metro and the fools ignored expanding it and went for trams.

Liverpool Councillor Stuart Monkcom has been an outspoken critic of the Merseytram scheme, highlighting the poor financial performance of tram networks in the UK. In the Liverpool Daily Post he wrote:

However, one of the greatest causes for concern is Revenue Deficit. Virtually all the attention is currently focused on the capital cost of the scheme (currently £450M and rising) with no apparent consideration of cost over-run which is inherent in all light rail projects or the possibility of revenue deficit if the project ever reaches fulfillment. In 2006, for example, Manchester's Altram accounts showed a loss of £8M due to overoptimistic passenger projections, while in the West Midlands the Midland Metro, also operated by Altram, showed losses of about £16M. Worst of all, down in London, Tramtrack Croydon Ltd recorded debts of £100M and was seeking financial restructuring in order to continue trading.
​

The poor performance of trams in the UK, prompted the Department for Transport to commission a study into dealing with 'Optimism Bias in Transport Planning'. What are the alternatives for Liverpool to be risk-averse. The answer is to improve and extend Merseyrail metro.

Ten Years Wasted Holding The City Back

If Merseytravel had the vision to extend Merseyrail in the city centre, and present a case for the inner-city districts with whole region connectivity, we may have seen the construction of Merseyrail extensions. This lack of focus has meant the city and region suffered. Ten years have been wasted. I would sack Scales of Merseyravel. They still have not put together a plan to extend Merseyrail.

The Merseyside region has been in the process of regeneration for a number of years. Since the tram network was conceived, Liverpool has progressed enormously. Events have overtaken the tram network before it has even been built, rendering the project a most certain expensive white elephant unable to cope with future growth.

Since the tram conception this has happened to the city

1. EFC building a stadium
2. LFC building a stadium
3. Wirall Waters
4. Liverpool Waters
5. Airport growing like hell

All the above needs rapid-transit rail. Yet the fools still are pushing trams.

Not once have Merseytravel tried to get both clubs on rapid-transit rail line. The boss needs sacking NOW!

 

[johnnydawg68]

Inner City,

Instead of quoting back and forth let me make this simple:

1) I do want a new stadium
2) I'm a fan of mass transit
3) I don't live in the city, I'm an American
4) I do care
5) I do keep up. I've spent a lot of time reading up on this. So much so, that I know you are "Common Sense" on the KEIOC forum.
6) The stadium should be in the city centre if at all possible.
7) The city of Liverpool needs to do a helluva lot more to help our club
8) I explained why Arsenal can do it easier than we can. If you want to debate me, don't pick one sentence out of a paragraph and then say it's vague, when you've removed all of the context.

 

[Inner-city]

Inner City,

Instead of quoting back and forth let me make this simple:

1) I do want a new stadium
2) I'm a fan of mass transit
3) I don't live in the city, I'm an American
4) I do care
5) I do keep up. I've spent a lot of time reading up on this. So much so, that I know you are "Common Sense" on the KEIOC forum.
6) The stadium should be in the city centre if at all possible.
7) The city of Liverpool needs to do a helluva lot more to help our club
8) I explained why Arsenal can do it easier than we can. If you want to debate me, don't pick one sentence out of a paragraph and then say it's vague, when you've removed all of the context.

That is better.

A Stadium needs to be the ideal location to get the fans to and from fast

City centre for a stadium? It could be, but it needs a rapid-transit station under the stadium, to eliminate the crowd nuisance and absence of car access - park & ride can be at the edge of the city. The best location is directly on an ideal rapid-transit line with most fans traveling direct without a change. This location can be anywhere.

Lords and an Understand Station

Lords Cricket ground in London has tunnels under the Nursery practice end of the ground. They are considering building a stand over the Nursery end and having a rapid-transit rail station directly under. Fans go directly into the stand and cricket ground. The knock on effects are substantial. Less nuisance value to the residents, and the ease of access and exit will attract more fans. It will keep them in far longer using and spending in their facilities rather than those elsewhere.

Also a location that is of little nuisance to locals, which the current two stadia clearly are.

Below the three tunnels under the Nursery end, being built in the 1890s. Lords only own the top 18" of land and can't put large buildings up. Now they can as they have bought two of the tunnels. The centre tunnel is the main line into Marylebone station.

They plan to replace this stand with a large stand with its own station under, taking the capacity from 32,000 to 48,000. The station is vital.

Below: the Nursery end is to the right.

Integrated stations is what LFC and EFC should be made to incorporate into their stadia. It all makes so much sense. A high throughput rapid transit rail link must be a precursor for a new stadium. No link. No Stadium.

Arsenal did Their Homework

With Arsenal the lines and stations were already there. They did not have to get another club as an enabler to get a line recommissioned, as EFC may have to do. Arsenal did have to get the local council to issue compulsory purchase orders for the site. Islington Council were active in retaining Arsenal, who looked at a number of sites in and outside of Islington.

The Council Have helped EFC - although not focused

Liverpool City council gave EFC the Kings Dock on plate - even the design. The city has tried to help but they did not know the best way. Two large football clubs are planning to build stadia at the same time. An once in 500 years occurrence. The city should look at what is best for the city first and then all other parties. The negative effects of stadia is well known. However they can be negated to a large extent, especially in a city with an abundance of suitable brownfield sites, and green field on the city's edge, and an abundance mothballed rail lines.

The best way for the city is combine the lot into one package with other parties as well. They allowed piecemeal approaches instead of taking the lead - look at the stadium Liverpool have planned. In a grade 2 listed park and a residential area with poor transport infrastructure. No one in their right mind would give planning permission for that.

The city should have done, but now should do, what I am advocating. Get all parties together and present to them a plan of recommissioning say the Outer Loop line. Give to them stadium sites on the line and site(s) for park & ride to serve all. The city overall has everything to benefit from. The parties will be, amongst many: EFC, LFC, Merseytravel, city council, Dept for Transport, Peel Holdings (own the airport), the Arena (a station at Parliament St can be recommissioned to serve them), any residents groups, companies in the city centre as they will gain by having ease of employee access by a new line, etc.

Once they are all together will the council guiding things will happen. The Dept for Transport will spend then. You have to give them a good case before they part with money. I would say the Outer Loop with two large football clubs on it is very case indeed.

 

[dixie1928]

So, if I've got this right, you're in favour of choo choos.

Super.

Small problem, not really addressed: nobody is giving us free money to build anything anywhere.

 

[Inner-city]

So, if I've got this right, you're in favour of choo choos.

Super.

I detect derogatory comments. Do you understand what rapid-transit can do? The case of Arsenal was given well.

Small problem, not really addressed: nobody is giving us free money to build anything anywhere.

Please read the thread - and understand - before posting. It is much better that way.

 

[ricardobee]

I'm loving this nerd-off. My money's on Inner city, he's got pictures and everything.

Please continue.

 

[Muggins]

I'm loving this nerd-off. My money's on Inner city, he's got pictures and everything.

Please continue.

mine too.

 

[Inner-city]

I'm loving this nerd-off. My money's on Inner city, he's got pictures and everything.

Please continue.

Nerd? Since when is wanting the best for EFC nerdy?

 

[Muggins]

Nerd? Since when is wanting the best for EFC nerdy?

*opens popcorn, alerts Chico*

 

[Inner-city]

1/3 of EFC season ticket holders have Wirral post codes. If Everton get relegated because of inaction on the stadium front and Tranmere rise (they got to the play-offs once), the young Wirral kids will turn to Rovers. A generation later and EFC will be firmly a 2nd to 3rd rate club - a has been. A whole sector of fans will have disappeared.

Wirral BC want the Wirral to be a city with a new name, with the centre at the new Wirral Waters in Birkenhead Docks. Wirral BC has a population of over 330,000, larger than Leicester, and can support a Premier club. Everton will suffer greatly.

Rapid-transit rail directly to the stadium will ensures the Wirral fans (and others) get to EFC easily and in comfort. That will solidify the fanbase.

I'm sure the rise of Wigan Athletic did will do harm to EFC in the long term. But it was not noticed as Goodison Park is too small. If the ground was much larger the effect would have been seen.

But! The Liverpool to Wigan line is being electrified. This may mean it is integrated into Merseyrail. So EFC may not be so affected if rapid-transit rail is directly to the stadium.

But Wigan in the PL will affect EFC's support for sure. Kirkby station has a direct link to Wigan, which would have attracted Lancashire fans.