Rapid-Transit Rail Guarantees Success for EFC, LFC and Arena

[Goat]

I don't really - I don't know one train class from another, I believe Meseyrail has class 408s whatever that is. But I know what trains can do. It is easier to get the points being forwarded than think it is some train enthusiast posting who wants trains for the sale of it.

I do want Liverpool to have comprehensive metro, like Paris and London, and close down the big awful roads like the Strand and stop the road building which rips out districts of the likes of Edge Lane.

And then people like me couldnt really give a frick.

 

[johnnydawg68]

Everton have been relegated twice before. Big Newcastle have just been down for a year. Never say never. The likelihood of being relegated is increased by having poor revenues - staying at Goodison Park. Money buys success. You know that I'm sure.

Wigan do not a have an established large fanbase. With greater PL exposure that fanbase will increase. Everton are a large established big city club. Elstone states that 90,000 Evertonians watch Everton at GP each year. These vary from season ticket holders to the two match a year walk-ups. That fanbase must be solidified and encouraged to attend more games per year. The stadium and rapid-transit will do that - as Arsenal found out.

You agree that each city should have rapid transit but now do not think so because you can't see a simple point? How strange.

Arsenal fans said that. Arsenal were a similar sized club to EFC. The same sized and similar type of ground, same sized fanbase, the same revenues, similar league performance, etc. They now fill a 60,000 seater and estimate they could fill 95% on average a 75,000 seater.


The revenues Sunderland take in are far superior to when at the old crock, Roker Park. Sunderland's attendances are running at 78% out of a total capacity of 49,000
http://stats.football365.com/dom/ENG/PR/attend.html

Sunderland in the Prem:
2002-2003 R 39698
2005-2006 R 33904
2007-2008 43344
2008-2009 40168
2009-2010 40355
39,493.8 Average of 78% full since they had a small rapid-transit rail station built near the stadium. In 2008 they were running at over 88% of capacity in a town/small city of only 177,739. That is 24.38% of the population attended the games on 2008 - nearly 1 in 4 of all men women and children. An amazing success!!!! You have to get it into perspective. Wirral BC is over 300,000 to give a guide.

And this is also two of the seasons Sunderland were relegated playing appallingly with managerial problems - the R above. Yet the still manged amazing attendances.

You have to comparer like with like. Everton are equivalent to Arsenal with catchment area of 1.5 million in Merseyside and well over 6.5 million in the immediate Lancashire and Cheshire.

Prof Tom Cannon with interesting facts about the Everton fanbase.

• Everton are estimated to have 500,000 supporters in the UK (those who claim to be Everton fans).
• Everton are estimated to have another 250,000 worldwide.
• Regular match goers (3 games or more) number between 75,000 and 100,000, Elstone says 90,000
• Everton have one of the youngest fanbases in the country
• A large percentage of graduates.
• The fanbase was one of the most geographically diverse in the UK.

All this set the scene for what massive potential Everton has. They need the stadium with the facilities and rapid-transit to get them there.

I am not scaremongering as you seem to think - I am being realistic.

1) The last time Everton was relegated was 1954! First rule of digging holes: If you find yourself in one, STOP DIGGING.
2) You just contradicted yourself. You said that young fans in central Lancashire have ALREADY switched to Wigan. Wigan have one of the smallest fanbases in the country. This has clearly NOT happened.
3) What simple point am I failing to see? Rail networks are great. But we build 75-80k stadiums in this country all the time in downtown locations without them.
4) You keep bringing up Arsenal. Arsenal are a bigger club than EFC, even the most died in the wool Blue knows that. I've proven this to you several times now and you just ignore it. Arsenal had a season ticket waiting list which had been closed for some time with over 20,000 members. There was a CLEAR need for a MUCH bigger stadium. Everton's season ticket waiting list? ZERO. at the same time there are multiple sources of income for the club; the remainder of the Lough Road site is being used for new housing, as are the surplus areas around the stadium at Ashburton Grove. Highbury is currently being converted into apartments, most of which have been sold. In total, more than 2,000 homes will be built at the three sites, and the club is counting on the profit from these developments to make a major contribution towards the costs of the new stadium. Other sources of revenue include the £100m from Emirates for the naming rights, to be paid over the course of the deal and a £15m contribution towards the capital costs of the stadium's catering facilities from catering firm Delaware North, which has a 20-year exclusive contract to run the stadium's catering operation. They had and have assets that are far more lucrative than we have. Quit comparing us to Arsenal.
5) Of course Sunderland get more revenue from their new stadium. Apples and Oranges. You just admitted that they play at 78% of capacity. Do we really want Everton to play in a stadium that is too big and have it be 1/4 to 1/3 empty?
6) If you are going to draw fans from Lancashire and Chester in significant numbers, you are going to have to plan for parking, because the majority of them will be driving not hopping the train. And if parking is a nightmare, they won't come. It's easier to stay home and watch the game on a big screen HD TV (and less expensive).

 

[Inner-city]

1) The last time Everton was relegated was 1954!

So EFC have been relegated. When they had the biggest and best ground in the country. I happens.

2) You just contradicted yourself. You said that young fans in central Lancashire have ALREADY switched to Wigan.

I never. If EFC do not given them rapid-transit access them will migrate to Wigan and Wigan alone. The Wigan to Liverpool like is being electrified and most prob will be on Merseyrail. Wigan after being ion the Prem will encourage all the young kids around top them and not migrating to EFC,.LFC, MUFC or MCFC. It take a generation.

3) What simple point am I failing to see? Rail networks are great. But we build 75-80k stadiums in this country all the time in downtown locations without them.

We do? Where? Emirate, Wembley, Olympic Stadium, Twickenham etc, all have rapid transit rail.

4) You keep bringing up Arsenal. Arsenal are a bigger club than EFC,

Their stadium is great success because of rapid-transit assess that is clearly what was put across. I also mention Arsenal we NOT bigger than EFC. Read it again.

5) Of course Sunderland get more revenue from their new stadium. Apples and Oranges. You just admitted that they play at 78% of capacity. Do we really want Everton to play in a stadium that is too big and have it be 1/4 to 1/3 empty?

I have the impression you are either silly or taking the piss. I wiped the floor with you re: Sunderland., who you said were playing in a half full stadium, which is not the case at all, the opposite in fact.

6) If you are going to draw fans from Lancashire and Chester in significant numbers, you are going to have to plan for parking, because the majority of them will be driving not hopping the train.

They will not drive if rapid-transit rail is there and the car parking is park & ride. Get the points Pay attention. Arsenal have most fans attend by rapid-transit rail.

 

[Inner-city]

And then people like me couldnt really give a frick.

That is obvious

 

[johnnydawg68]

So EFC have been relegated. When they had the biggest and best ground in the country. I happens.



I never. If EFC do not given them rapid-transit access them will migrate to Wigan and Wigan alone. The Wigan to Liverpool like is being electrified and most prob will be on Merseyrail. Wigan after being ion the Prem will encourage all the young kids around top them and not migrating to EFC,.LFC, MUFC or MCFC. It take a generation.



We do? Where? Emirate, Wembley, Olympic Stadium, Twickenham etc, all have rapid transit rail.



Their stadium is great success because of rapid-transit assess that is clearly what was put across. I also mention Arsenal we NOT bigger than EFC. Read it again.


I have the impression you are either silly or taking the piss. I wiped the floor with you re: Sunderland., who you said were playing in a half full stadium, which is not the case at all, the opposite in fact.



They will not drive if rapid-transit rail is there and the car parking is park & ride. Get the points Pay attention. Arsenal have most fans attend by rapid-transit rail.

"EFC have been relegated. When they had the biggest and best ground in the country. I happens".

Just because something happened 56 years ago doesn't mean it is likely to happen again. And you can't prove that it will happen again.

"I never. If EFC do not given them rapid-transit access them will migrate to Wigan and Wigan alone. The Wigan to Liverpool like is being electrified and most prob will be on Merseyrail. Wigan after being ion the Prem will encourage all the young kids around top them and not migrating to EFC,.LFC, MUFC or MCFC. It take a generation".

You clearly have no concept of why kids or anyone else support teams.

"We do? Where? Emirate, Wembley, Olympic Stadium, Twickenham etc, all have rapid transit rail".

I live in America. It says so clearly in the upper right hand corner, and I've told you that earlier. We (in America) somehow manage to do the superhuman feat of building MUCH larger stadiums without state of the art mass transit systems. Somehow we manage to get MUCH larger crowds in and out of stadiums every Sunday for NFL games, and every day in some cases for baseball games (here in St. Louis, Busch Stadium holds 44k seats, most of which are filled every game for 82 games a year). We do have light rail, but a very small percentage of the fans who go to the game use it (I love it but I live near a station - it's easy for me).

"I have the impression you are either silly or taking the piss. I wiped the floor with you re: Sunderland., who you said were playing in a half full stadium, which is not the case at all, the opposite in fact".

Whatever. "half-filled" was an off the cuff remark. You actually reinforced my point. Playing at 78% of capacity in a newer stadium is downright awful. 78% is not the "opposite" of half full by the way. 100% would be the opposite.

You are the one being silly. I am pointing out the facts. You make it sound like building and financing a new stadium is as simple as an improved rail structure. That's the essence of your point. And it's ridiculous.

 

[FinchFarmBlue]

Is this a college project by chance inner city?

Just cpl of pts to make- Peel relinquished their ownership of the airport to Canadian buyers recently so I'd be hard pressed to see them funding a rail airport link any time soon. LFC eventually get what LFC want an unwritten rule really-they will build on Stanley Park before the decades out.Unlmited success wouldn't even get the city and private sector to bend over for Everton so again that outer loop will not happen in my lifetime. Forseeabe is ltd spending all round and then the RS will be a priority and other city projects. No doubts we'll get something next 10 to 15 years but will not be a patch on your grand scheme. We value us but the city don't-not how it should be but its what we've got.

 

[Robert Jarvis]

I always remember the overhead railway.

 

[Inner-city]

I always remember the overhead railway.

You must be getting on a bit. In the 1940s a city-wide loop was proposed using the Overhead and the Outer Loop line. Then they stupidly demolished the Overhead railway. Here is a German plane attack on the railway.

[video=youtube;NArWKpSp0MU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NArWKpSp0MU[/video]

 

[Inner-city]

Is this a college project by chance inner city?

Just cpl of pts to make- Peel relinquished their ownership of the airport to Canadian buyers recently so I'd be hard pressed to see them funding a rail airport link any time soon. LFC eventually get what LFC want an unwritten rule really-they will build on Stanley Park before the decades out.Unlmited success wouldn't even get the city and private sector to bend over for Everton so again that outer loop will not happen in my lifetime. Forseeabe is ltd spending all round and then the RS will be a priority and other city projects. No doubts we'll get something next 10 to 15 years but will not be a patch on your grand scheme. We value us but the city don't-not how it should be but its what we've got.

Peel sold the airport? It must have been in the last month or so. The Outer Loop would benefit both clubs and the Arena and others. LFC are considering a re-design to get 73,000, but they need a station for that. The station will be a walk away not on the stadium - not ideal. The station will not benefit the local low density community that much. They will have to pay for the bulk of the station costs. A site on the Outer Loop with a station that will be used more by the local community mean they will pay less. One with a park & ride would be good. It is worth their while looking at better sites on the Outer Loop. Get EFC involved and the cost then are mainly met by HMGvmt.

This is not a college project.

 

[Inner-city]

"EFC have been relegated. When they had the biggest and best ground in the country. It happens".

Just because something happened 56 years ago doesn't mean it is likely to happen again. And you can't prove that it will happen again.

You can't prove it will not. In the past 15 years Everton have been one game from relegation. They were lucky on both occasions not to go down. They should have against Wimbledon relying on the results of others to see if they stayed up.

You clearly have no concept of why kids or anyone else support teams.

It the local team is in the PL it is more likely they will support that team. Wimbledon went to Milton Keynes and renamed the club MK Dons. The local kids are turning to MK Dons rather than Spurs or Arsenal.

I live in America. It says so clearly in the upper right hand corner, and I've told you that earlier. We (in America) somehow manage to do the superhuman feat of building MUCH larger stadiums without state of the art mass transit systems. Somehow we manage to get MUCH larger crowds in and out of stadiums every Sunday for NFL games, and every day in some cases for baseball games (here in St. Louis, Busch Stadium holds 44k seats, most of which are filled every game for 82 games a year). We do have light rail, but a very small percentage of the fans who go to the game use it (I love it but I live near a station - it's easy for me).

Apart from the odd large city the USA has no rapid-transit systems. Everything is geared to cars and large highways. In the 1930s GM bought up the tramways and demolished them so as to sell cars. Liverpool is on a Victorian street pattern, Medieval in the business quarter. Only on the outskirts was there design for cars with the 1920s boulevards, which had trams in the centre. WE have a rapid-transit network that other cities would drool over, yet the city in its wisdom does not want to use it for approx 4 million passenger journey's for football alone. It is ludicrous not to use it.

Whatever. "half-filled" was an off the cuff remark. You actually reinforced my point. Playing at 78% of capacity in a newer stadium is downright awful. 78% is not the "opposite" of half full by the way. 100% would be the opposite.

Read back on the post I sent re: Sunderland. An amazing success is a town.It got city status a few years back, but is still the size of town.

You are the one being silly. I am pointing out the facts. You make it sound like building and financing a new stadium is as simple as an improved rail structure. That's the essence of your point. And it's ridiculous.

It is easy to finance them as over the past 15 years countless stadia has been built in the UK. Arsenal had no problems. Top football clubs are good to lend to as they stay around for a long time. The Credit Crunch has made little difference to PL attendances. We are moving out of the Credit Crunch.

 

[Inner-city]

New stadia are being built at Nottingham, Bristol and two in London. It appears money is available to built these structures. Shamefully EFC are not in the world cup bag...and MK Dons are.

6 are not even PL clubs and one is neutral. Shameful.

 

[Inner-city]

The Sainsbury plan for Walton Hall Park:

The Outer Loop runs from bottom right to near top centre - next to the proposed stadium.
This may branch into the Kirkby branch of the Northern Line at Rice Lane
station taking fans back to the city centre.
The red line is the disused Kirkdale to Rice Lane tunnel.
The Outer Loop curved into the tunnel following the curve of the park.

 

[OneTrueLegend]

I have read all of the details and i think it all looks like a very good idea for the city of liverpool, far more deliverable than trams or other schemes. How successful it will be in attracting new fans to the current or proposed stadiums remains to be seen.

Doe's anyone know if this scheme is going to be implemented?

 

[Inner-city]

I have read all of the details and i think it all looks like a very good idea for the city of liverpool, far more deliverable than trams or other schemes. How successful it will be in attracting new fans to the current or proposed stadiums remains to be seen.

Doe's anyone know if this scheme is going to be implemented?

It is being played on. The city needs Merseyrail expanded into a true metro, especially serving the inner-cities.
The east of the city is poorly served, and no airport station at the terminal. The electrification from Wigan/St.Helens which is still going ahead and bringing it into Merseyrail will make matters better, especially if the Outer Loop and the two clubs are located on it.

The metro should be the corer of the city and all built around its stations, which should be the centre of districts. That is what other major cities do in the world. The metro is a forgotten network - despite being the most successful outside of London. Those who are on the lines appreciate it, while those who are not, forget it exists. Man people in Birkenhead can get into Liverpool city centre in minutes, while those in Wavertree will trundle though traffic jams on crap buses taking an eternity in rush hour.

Arsenal were conservative at how much rapid-transit rail would boost their support. It has been an amazing success. They have admitted they undersized the stadium. I am not sure how much it can be extended.

Merseytravel are still pushing for trams to save face. The lumbering-transit tram line to Kirkby was only 5 minutes faster than the bus while Mersey was a few minutes. Duh!!!

Professor Proulove of Liverpool uni - professor of transport studies - "the folly of the Tramway that would be a waste of money and deflect from the improvement of the present rail network".​

Merseytravel were saying that the trams would shift the fans from the EFC Kirkby stadium - which is silly to say the least.

Since the conception of trams events have overtaken it:

1. EFC building a stadium
2. LFC building a stadium
3. Wirral Waters
4. Liverpool Waters
5. Airport expansion

Only a metro can link these and shift large volumes of people - not trundling trams. It is about time Neal Scales of Merseytravel was sacked for wasting 10 to 15 years. If he had put plans forward for expanding the metro we have had LFC and EFC on large stadia right now on rapid-transit lines.

 

[Inner-city]

Interesting about the Emirates. Only 10 rows of extra seats at back at the rear of the stadium gives another 10,000. It was originally supposed to be 80,000.

I work with one of the architects who helped design and build the new Arsenal stadium and even lived onsite while it was being built, so if anyone knows the facts he does and so will you now!

(I have bombarded him with questions and the following is what I have been told)

The stadium can be expanded and will, it is only a matter of time. This was a pre-required specification of the design to allow it to be future-proof. It was originally designed to be an 80,000 seater stadium with a retractable roof, but because of Islington council objection and time to build as well as cost, it is now at 60,000 capacity. Let us be honest, it is a good jump in size from 38,000 as Highbury was.

The area around the pitch can be utilised for seating if needed and would provide up to 5,000 more seats. For new stadium regulations, this area is required to be free of seating however. This is a good thing as stadiums that will be selected for the 2018 World Cup have to adhere to this rule, eg Wembly as another stadium.

Regarding expanding the stadium, there are a few simple ways this can be done. Emirates Stadium is a four-tiered design, simply adding an extra tier(just like the overlapping tier between the first and second tier) will add the capacity required or simply to keep adding steps to the original stadium as it is, ie increase the steps from the back row.

There are approximately 1,000 seats in the last row of the stadium. If you take an extra 10 steps, then that would be 10,000 seats. Another factor to look at is the height of the stadium. Rules in building it were it had to be of a maximum height, which it is below now anyway as the stadium was built below ground level.

Getting back to the maximum capacity, it would take 40 steps to add 40,000 seats (This is a conservative estimate) and bring the total capacity to over 100,000.

The roof will need to be removed and a new roof replacing it, but as you can see it is not a nightmare architectually speaking.

I can go on and on, with statistics and figures etc.

The bottom line is that once the underground, overground and road infrastructure is improved in future (Arsenal has to live up to their original promises) then we can see it happening.