Racial Bias in Football Commentary

[MikeH72]

No one knows what racism means anymore. Not a single person.

 

[kenada_blue]

No one knows what racism means anymore. Not a single person.

It's like a lot of things now, meaning is getting lost in a muddled cloud.

 

[TheBigIguana]

There's two points

1. Do commentators exhibit subconcious racial bias, to which I'm sure the answer is yes

and

2. How much do they exhibit that bias, and this paper, because it's been written by someone who doesn't really seem to understand how to analyse the data, fails in that respect.

If you're going to measure something then you need to measure it properly, otherwise, if you repeat the exercise in the future, you won't be able to determine if anything's changed or not.

On larger issues, those larger issues include how BAME athletes and sportspeople are treated as they come through schoolage. If you ignore the possibility that they might be getting channeled into "fast and strong" areas, then you risk concentrating on one area at the expense of another. If you just want to concentrate on commentators, that's fine, there's plainly work to do there, but just concentrating on commentators misses so much more.

I think they've focused on commentators as an easily measurable example of a larger problem. I find it hard to believe this group of hopefully well informed football people would do this and less informed groups online and in pubs would be immune to it. I understand it isn't a perfect study but the idea is to maybe be aware that this could be happening and to try and work on stopping it.

And as I said somewhere else this is a pretty well documented problem in American sports. Basketball especially tends to focus on the mental and hard working aspects of white players while mostly playing to the athleticism of black ones. Which is why when I see this about football I easily buy it.

 

[TheBigIguana]

Try not to do exactly what so much? Have an unconscious bias? Sounds even more nonsensical than your average football commentary to be honest. Perhaps you would prefer it if they had a conscious bias and over-compensated for their supposed unconscious bias? Perhaps if people stopped looking for problems that may or may not exist (but finding them anyway regardless) then this feeding of resentment might stop.

This sounds like "people pointing out racism are the real racists."

 

[Sarnia Kevin]

This sounds like "people pointing out racism are the real racists."

This sounds like an attempt to avoid answering my question, which was (if you've forgotten it) " Try not to do exactly what so much? Have an unconscious bias?"

 

[PaulPowersTash]

I'm confused (which does happen often)...
So if Lovre Kalinic of Aston Villa (who is 6ft 4in) scores a header it's racist to point out
that he used his main physical attribute of his height to his (and his teams) advantage?

 

[Catfish Blues]

I think they've focused on commentators as an easily measurable example of a larger problem. I find it hard to believe this group of hopefully well informed football people would do this and less informed groups online and in pubs would be immune to it. I understand it isn't a perfect study but the idea is to maybe be aware that this could be happening and to try and work on stopping it.

And as I said somewhere else this is a pretty well documented problem in American sports. Basketball especially tends to focus on the mental and hard working aspects of white players while mostly playing to the athleticism of black ones. Which is why when I see this about football I easily buy it.

Oh, I get where you're coming from mate, but I'm a scientist by trade, and an analyst by profession, so if some research or data is put in front of me which is obviously flawed, then I'll rip it to bits. It's nothing personal against the author, it's just what we do.

The problem with flawed research, is that it makes it very easy to bat away, especially if people are uncomfortable with acknowledging there's likely a problem, so it needs doing properly.

I'm not familiar with the situation in the States, and know nothing about basketball, so can't comment. On football in the UK, what would be interesting would be look at groups of similar type players, with similar ability, who create chances, and then watch and listen to games to see how often their skills were mentioned.

So you might have something like four or five groups of players to compare with the top tier being something like :-

De Bruyne, Sterling , Son, Traore, Salah, Willian , Alexander-Arnold, the two Silvas, Jimenez, Digne , Maddison etc

• Watch a random sample of ten or more games
• Note how many times they did something particularly skilful
• Note what commentators actually said
• See if the ratio of positive comments compared to skilful moves varies with skin colour

You'd have to do similar things for other areas ( fast & strong, intelligent etc ) and do it for different skill levels, but you'd then get something approaching sensible analysis using better control methods.

On a slightly different tack. Sub-concsious bias definitely exists, I've been trained to recognise it in myself, and, to a lesser extent, in others, and it's quite an eye-opener.

We're all products of our environment, and as a white bloke who grew up in areas where black folk where few and far between, but grew up mixing with Asian lads and lasses, I know where most of my racial bias exists, and try to adjust for it, but still fail now and them ... probably more often than I know.

 

[TheBigIguana]

Oh, I get where you're coming from mate, but I'm a scientist by trade, and an analyst by profession, so if some research or data is put in front of me which is obviously flawed, then I'll rip it to bits. It's nothing personal against the author, it's just what we do.

The problem with flawed research, is that it makes it very easy to bat away, especially if people are uncomfortable with acknowledging there's likely a problem, so it needs doing properly.

I'm not familiar with the situation in the States, and know nothing about basketball, so can't comment. On football in the UK, what would be interesting would be look at groups of similar type players, with similar ability, who create chances, and then watch and listen to games to see how often their skills were mentioned.

So you might have something like four or five groups of players to compare with the top tier being something like :-

De Bruyne, Sterling , Son, Traore, Salah, Willian , Alexander-Arnold, the two Silvas, Jimenez, Digne , Maddison etc

• Watch a random sample of ten or more games
• Note how many times they did something particularly skilful
• Note what commentators actually said
• See if the ratio of positive comments compared to skilful moves varies with skin colour

You'd have to do similar things for other areas ( fast & strong, intelligent etc ) and do it for different skill levels, but you'd then get something approaching sensible analysis using better control methods.

On a slightly different tack. Sub-concsious bias definitely exists, I've been trained to recognise it in myself, and, to a lesser extent, in others, and it's quite an eye-opener.

We're all products of our environment, and as a white bloke who grew up in areas where black folk where few and far between, but grew up mixing with Asian lads and lasses, I know where most of my racial bias exists, and try to adjust for it, but still fail now and them ... probably more often than I know.

Yeah it definitely doesn't take out enough variables with how it is designed. So I understand why people would be quick to be dismissive. But I do think it's something that you should keep an eye out for when you watch football on TV going forward. It is pretty eye opening.

You brought up Sterling and I think that's a very interesting case. I'd guess if you asked people what Raheem's defining attribute was you'd probably get a lot of answers of pace. And Raheem is fast no question, but he was always fast and he didn't always score or create tons of goals. For me what Sterling is really good at is identifying space in the box. Maybe not Thomas Muller good but part of the reason he missed so many sitters was that he found so many positions to have sitters. It's not an aspect of his game that many people discuss though, at least in my experiences. I know that isn't really evidence, but to me stuff like that is worth considering.

 

[TheBigIguana]

This sounds like an attempt to avoid answering my question, which was (if you've forgotten it) " Try not to do exactly what so much? Have an unconscious bias?"

Sorry your last sentence was so ridiculous that I forgot the question. Anyway it's only an unconscious bias so long as it remains unconscious. If someone points out you're doing it and you are then aware of it's existence, it is no longer something you can write off as unconscious and yes you should stop doing it.

 

[Sarnia Kevin]

Sorry your last sentence was so ridiculous that I forgot the question. Anyway it's only an unconscious bias so long as it remains unconscious. If someone points out you're doing it and you are then aware of it's existence, it is no longer something you can write off as unconscious and yes you should stop doing it.

So have you contacted all the football commentators who you think are exhibiting "unconscious bias" and told them they need to be conscious of their unconscious bias? If not, how are they going to know that they're doing wrong? Or are you suggesting that they should be put into re-education camps to be cured of their wrong-think and, if so, why stop at commentators? How about going the full Pol Pot and put everyone into re-education camps just in case they are unconsciously thinking wrong-think?

You will obviously write this comment off as "so ridiculous" that you can ignore it.

 

[TheBigIguana]

So have you contacted all the football commentators who you think are exhibiting "unconscious bias" and told them they need to be conscious of their unconscious bias? If not, how are they going to know that they're doing wrong? Or are you suggesting that they should be put into re-education camps to be cured of their wrong-think and, if so, why stop at commentators? How about going the full Pol Pot and put everyone into re-education camps just in case they are unconsciously thinking wrong-think?

You will obviously write this comment off as "so ridiculous" that you can ignore it.

Yeah mate the idea that trying to identify biases and person to person try to correct them in an attempt to make our society less discriminatory is akin to forcing people into reeducation camps is to steal a word, ridiculous.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

*Looks for a BME moderator

 

[Kurt.]

I think its bollocks personally.

Its not racial bias to suggest black athletes have more power and are stronger, name a sport and the black person will stand out for their power and strength.

If people want to turn praise about a positive into a negative that's on them.

Darts ...

 

[Sarnia Kevin]

Yeah mate the idea that trying to identify biases and person to person try to correct them in an attempt to make our society less discriminatory is akin to forcing people into reeducation camps is to steal a word, ridiculous.

That's fine, I'm just wondering how far you are willing to go to remove wrong-think from society that's all. Seems that you think that it's possible to change human nature with ease.

 

[TheBigIguana]

That's fine, I'm just wondering how far you are willing to go to remove wrong-think from society that's all. Seems that you think that it's possible to change human nature with ease.

Human's aren't racist by nature mate. That's a learned thing.