Promoting youth to the first team

[catcherintherye]

The obvious caveat to this debate is that it is easier to play people when you first arrive at a club. When Moyes first came, Chadwick, Rooney, Hibbert and Osman were introduced.

The challenge over time, is to keep faith with this method. That will be Martinez's big challenge too. Is he able to move his own players on, as opposed to binning off his predecessors/.

What I like about Martinez though. compared to Moyes is he takes the ages between 16-21 very seriously. I think Moyes was looking at generating a Rooney/Barkley type player.
I think Martinez is happier to play and develop squad players.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

Moyes is a myth when it comes to youth, they'd get 10 minutes stuck on the wing if lucky and unless they did something amazing you'd never see them again or kept in the reserves instead of getting loan experience .


At least with roberto there seems to be plans for the youth, several loans for experience, if given a chance usually in there proper position

Martinez does seem on the surface to be better

The real test will be seeing if he's prepared to drop an under performing first teamer and replace him with someone from the youth system

For example, if Coleman has a string of bad starts, would Martinez be ballsy enough to drop him and give Browning a go?

If Barry is stinking up the joint, would Martinez take him out and give Ledson a start?

With Moyes, the answer to that question was always a resounding "No"

Unless you were astonishingly good like Rooney, you'd get the odd game and be dropped as soon as the usual player was fit again. Barkley and Duffy would be the perfect examples in regards to that

Martinez has shown with the whole Howard and Robles situation that is isn't immune from this

However, he has shown with Stones coming in for Distin that he is capable of dropping a regular first teamer and giving the spot to someone younger

Bringing in Alcaraz when Duffy, Browning and Galloway were options as CB raises questions, but then not only has he signed Deulofeu this transfer window, he gave him free reign to run rampant in that loan season he was here to boot

I guess I don't truly know where Martinez stands yet. He's done some positive things in regards to the youth set up but then some things that contradict those other things

I don't know, basically, but I think I will by season's end

 

[ftk43]

Martinez does seem on the surface to be better

The real test will be seeing if he's prepared to drop an under performing first teamer and replace him with someone from the youth system

For example, if Coleman has a string of bad starts, would Martinez be ballsy enough to drop him and give Browning a go?

If Barry is stinking up the joint, would Martinez take him out and give Ledson a start?

With Moyes, the answer to that question was always a resounding "No"

Unless you were astonishingly good like Rooney, you'd get the odd game and be dropped as soon as the usual player was fit again. Barkley and Duffy would be the perfect examples in regards to that

Martinez has shown with the whole Howard and Robles situation that is isn't immune from this

However, he has shown with Stones coming in for Distin that he is capable of dropping a regular first teamer and giving the spot to someone younger

Bringing in Alcaraz when Duffy, Browning and Galloway were options as CB raises questions, but then not only has he signed Deulofeu this transfer window, he gave him free reign to run rampant in that loan season he was here to boot

I guess I don't truly know where Martinez stands yet. He's done some positive things in regards to the youth set up but then some things that contradict those other things

I don't know, basically, but I think I will by season's end

I mostly agree with you, mate, except that when we signed Alcaraz Browning was 19, Galloway wasn't even here (we bought him in 2014) and Martinez didn't rate Duffy too high and sent him out on loan for the season and eventually sold him. So our CB options was Distin, Jags, Heitinga (who was appalling in the Moyes' last season) and Stones (unproven youngster). We needed an experienced CB for back-up, so RM went for a player that he worked before already.

We all know how it turned out, but at the time Alcaraz' signing made perfect sense.

 

[Jimmywhack]

How many young lads have been given a real go by Martinez?
Barkley and?

They are both the same in that they pick the players they trust

 

[sageyefc]

How many young lads have been given a real go by Martinez?
Barkley and?

They are both the same in that they pick the players they trust

Stones, del, garbutt, not bad for 2 years.

Real test is bringing through the group we should have coming through next year and year after that, lads from the u18's, in the meantime i like how theyre being given the correct loans to get them rteady

 

[bluemangroup]

He bought stones as a right back and he played there for our reserves was bobby that turned him into a cb, and Ross was on a one way track to nowhere he was so poorly treated.. Garbutt was stalling too untill his loan move and hes come out of nowhere

No he didn't buy him as a RB, he was doing exactly what Martinez is doing now with Galloway. Moyes was maybe overly cautious with Barkley but that's understandable given how little defensive work he does even now. Garbutt was sent out on loan to Cheltenham and was getting regular game time during Moyes' time here so let's not pretend he was entirely ignorant of our youth teams.
It's convenient to dismiss Moyes' legacy here but it looks pretty petty if you start inventing things to suit a narrative.

 

[Stephenlloyd]

Firstly Moyes bought Stones and Garbutt so I don't understand this 'he didn't get anyone for the first 11' line. He bought long term prospects that are now starting to come into the first team like Garbutt.

Also what is commonly forgotten is the time factor. Barkley is still very inconsistent even now and is not guaranteed a starting spot yet people are blaming Moyes for not making him a permanent fixture in the first team 4 years ago. He wasn't ready! Moyes gave him his debut and some big starts but he was not going to displace Fellaini at the time. Equally Stones there's a massive difference in a year's development time when you're a teenager. Who else in the Orem would have broken up their starting back 2 CBs to accommodate an unproven 18 year old? Martinez didn't until injury forced his hand. Even at the start of this season Distin and Jags were first choice until it became obvious to everyone Distin had finally lost it.

Moyes gave loads of youth players a chance and a start but not enough of them were good enough and that is the sad truth. We may well be saying the same thing about Browning or Ledson if it turns out they don't quite make the grade, or Green if he goes off and suddenly makes it elsewhere. Hindsight is a wonderful thing when it comes to youth players but the amount of revisionism that goes on with Moyes is laughable.

To be honest under moyes
Especially his 1st. 6/7 yrs we had very small squads and constantly had youngsters on the bench

And with a few injuries a number of them would be on the pitch

In his last 3 yrs when his squad was much bigger and with more quality not many youngsters got a look in

There was a time due to injuries anichebe & Vaughan were are 2nd & 3rd choice strikers as teenagers
Also gosling and rodwell were getting game time

If we had the squad we have now back then
Anichebe Vaughan & gosling wouldn't even make the bench

 

[Jimmywhack]

Stones, del, garbutt, not bad for 2 years.

Real test is bringing through the group we should have coming through next year and year after that, lads from the u18's, in the meantime i like how theyre being given the correct loans to get them rteady

Signed Deulofeu, its not the same as bringing him through
Garbutt? Really? He played Hibbert ahead of him and Oviedo, he was everntually used as a noone else left
Stones would have broke in eventually no matter who was in charge

 

[sageyefc]

No he didn't buy him as a RB, he was doing exactly what Martinez is doing now with Galloway. Moyes was maybe overly cautious with Barkley but that's understandable given how little defensive work he does even now. Garbutt was sent out on loan to Cheltenham and was getting regular game time during Moyes' time here so let's not pretend he was entirely ignorant of our youth teams.
It's convenient to dismiss Moyes' legacy here but it looks pretty petty if you start inventing things to suit a narrative.

Jog on you bell

 

[bluemangroup]

Jog on you bell

Acknowledge that massive chip on your shoulder with respect to the Moyes please fam and then come and have an adult conversation with me about why you're wrong x

 

[JustOpp]

One thing that may be worth mentioning is Martinez might not have a choice to ignore the academy if he sticks around long enough. The FA are said to want to increase the minimum number of homegrown players per club to 12 by 2020.

It's easy to say Everton won't have a problem hitting that mark and think it won't change things. But what about other clubs? Suddenly bringing in players like Cleverley and Stones becomes a lot more difficult, as does keeping players like Stones and Barkley.

 

[sageyefc]

Signed Deulofeu, its not the same as bringing him through
Garbutt? Really? He played Hibbert ahead of him and Oviedo, he was everntually used as a noone else left
Stones would have broke in eventually no matter who was in charge

Doesnt matter ifd del was a loan, still a big risk in the first place,
Of course oviedo was used ahead of him, hes a far superior defender and the senior defender, he used hibbo the once over him which was wise because fat sam wouldve had diagonals going towards garbutt all day long and he'd of been destroyed, especially on his debut, played the week later against wolsfburg though

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

Stones, del, garbutt, not bad for 2 years.

Real test is bringing through the group we should have coming through next year and year after that, lads from the u18's, in the meantime i like how theyre being given the correct loans to get them rteady

It's integrating them into the first team and making them regular starters that will be the big test, especially with the defenders as they seem to be particularly good

You could give Galloway, Browning or Garbutt a start in the league against any side and I wouldn't worry in the slightest

Again, I think it's healthy to let every first teamer know they could be dropped if they don't perform. Coleman had a bad run last season. If he has a similar poor run this season, I would hope him to be dropped and Browning allowed to play instead, as a way of showing that no one is untouchable

Martinez could be excused in the past for not dropping some players due to the back up choices not being up to it, but he doesn't have this excuse this season

Robles, Oviedo, Galloway, Browning, Garbutt and McAlney have all shown they can hold their own in the first team if required

Meanwhile, players like Ledson and Dowell are showing promise in the youth ranks

It's an exciting time, that's for sure. I just hope we make the most of these talented young players we have at our disposal

 

[sageyefc]

Acknowledge that massive chip on your shoulder with respect to the Moyes please fam and then come and have an adult conversation with me about why you're wrong x

No, hes a myth when it comes to youth

 

[bluemangroup]

No, hes a myth when it comes to youth

You're being silly m8 x