Poll : Martinez Post Newcastle

[Allezfan]

Don't you think we've had more purpose with our possession in the last two games though? We seem to be playing at a higher tempo. Not necessarily playing more long balls but rather passing higher up the pitch, instead of between Jagielka/Alcaraz.

Yeah, but that's always been how a good martinez team has played. In the last game and a half we've gone from bad bobby to good bobby, which is fantastic, especially if it keeps up.

But it's still recognisably a martinez team. We played a bit like that, last year, for example.

 

[GwladysBlue]

Barring a Europa League win, how can he justify a season where we haven't finished in the Top 7 and most likely, top half?

He'll have until next Christmas to turn it around or he'll be out.

 

[Khalekan]

All of the pundits are onto him now, clearly highlighting how slow Everton have been in getting the ball forward and that the over passing was the reason for such mediocrity.

He has nowhere left to hide, which is a very good thing.

Excellent point.

When the world and his wife are pointing at you and saying you are wearing no clothes, it would take a particularly mad kind of a madman to think every one of them was wrong.

As ever, the fans were ahead of the curve.

He could ignore us as long as the pundits were still tickling his belly.

Once they stopped the philosophy had a light shone upon it.

 

[Toffeelover]

The fact is our play on Sunday was totally different from the umpteen league games before. Has the penny now dropped with RM.

 

[Khalekan]

So true. We suddenly have:

-Alcaraz back in favour

"back" in favour?

You mean there was a time he was actually in favour, Kith?

Cor blimey I must 'ave missed that bit

 

[Ihaters]

Yeah, but that's always been how a good martinez team has played. In the last game and a half we've gone from bad bobby to good bobby, which is fantastic, especially if it keeps up.

But it's still recognisably a martinez team. We played a bit like that, last year, for example.

Its not, we've always played a slow passing game, then relied on a couple of moments of magic, a Coleman run into the box or Mirallas one, a Ross long shot or a Lukaku bombardment etc... we have rarely been massively penetrating on the whole as a team under Martinez, the last game and a half, we have played far more entertaining football and been far, better than previously.

If we continue to play like this, then I will consider him a phenomenal upgrade, if we return to the slow pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, pass pass zzz oops what did I miss.. oh yeah.. pass, pass, pass long shot!!! wide.. Won the ball back... pass, pass, pass, pass, pass etc.. then I will get bored, as I often did frequently last season even when we picked up points.

But that's just personal opinion, I never liked that style of football, even when Spain won the world cup with it, just bores me.

Last few games though have been something very different, and edge of your seat football, loving it, just want to see us keep it going now.

 

[paulbefc]

The fact is our play on Sunday was totally different from the umpteen league games before. Has the penny now dropped with RM.

The difference is confidence, for me. We've started to show some of last season's form because we've actually had:

1) Players moving/asking for the ball more up top
2) Players taking chances with their passes forward
3) A little bit of creative know-how as Osman's been playing well since he has come back

Look at the build-up to the penalty in the week. It was superb quick, short passing football, in the last ten minutes of a game where we desperately needed a winner. The mixing of more direct play and better quick passing in the final third has meant we're more a of a threat, like last season. I actually do believe the crowd have played their part too, like. I think someone needed to violently shake the players to wake them up and it's possible the fume at 0-1 forced them to start playing.

 

[Ihaters]

It's 1 and a 1/2 half games FFS! lol

Shall we at least wait until maybe, 4-5 games before making an assessment?

Let's be honest, after 30 mins against Kiev the majority of us had written him off completely as a lost cause.

The Kiev game will be interesting for many reasons. He needs to get his tactics spot on for that game, so it will be interesting to see what approach he takes there.

Do we sit solid and try and hit them on the counter, or try and keep the ball as much as possible in an effort to frustrate them then open them up?

His biggest test is the next 2 games IMO. QPR are absolutely pants, we we must take a minimum point from there too.

Certainly not, what's wrong with you man?
I'd made my mind up when we equalised against the Russians.

 

[Ihaters]

The fact is our play on Sunday was totally different from the umpteen league games before. Has the penny now dropped with RM.

Amazingly, some don't think it was lol

 

[Khalekan]

Certainly not, what's wrong with you man?
I'd made my mind up when we equalised against the Russians.

.....er......Ukrainians.....

 

[Ihaters]

.....er......Ukrainians.....

Whatever lol..
Flippin foreigners.. coming over here, taking away our inability to win games...

 

[davek]

Don't you think we've had more purpose with our possession in the last two games though? We seem to be playing at a higher tempo. Not necessarily playing more long balls but rather passing higher up the pitch, instead of between Jagielka/Alcaraz.

I said before yesterday's game that what we witnessed against Kiev was the pace being upped and the movement had more urgency - and when you do that you necessarily bypass players who you would use if that movement and pace of passing the ball wasn't there. In other words, it's illusory to see fundamental change. Martinez has been standing on the line doing that motion he does to speed up tempo time and time again - THIS is what he's wanted (and it goes to the heart of my worry about Everton not having dominant leadership presence ON THE PITCH who can transfer that instruction).

We played in this mixed manner all last season. We played a lot of different styles within games (which is what Martinez always stresses: that flexibility to switch in-game). Only in the first 3/4 games of last season were we playing a ponderous brand of football...something that we broke out of back then and something Martinez has been trying to break us out of in certain games where we fell into it this season.

Some people want to set the debate up as a battle of wills between retaining "dat tippy tappy tika taka stuff lad' and abandoning it to 'play with long purposeful passing'. That argument is an abstraction and doesn't do justice to what's gone before and what the manager is trying to achieve now...which, put simply, is to play winning football by retaining as much possession of the ball as necessary to open teams up....which in turn needs pace and movement.

 

[Allezfan]

Its not, we've always played a slow passing game, then relied on a couple of moments of magic, a Coleman run into the box or Mirallas one, a Ross long shot or a Lukaku bombardment etc... we have rarely been massively penetrating on the whole as a team under Martinez, the last game and a half, we have played far more entertaining football and been far, better than previously.

If we continue to play like this, then I will consider him a phenomenal upgrade, if we return to the slow pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, pass pass zzz oops what did I miss.. oh yeah.. pass, pass, pass long shot!!! wide.. Won the ball back... pass, pass, pass, pass, pass etc.. then I will get bored, as I often did frequently last season even when we picked up points.

But that's just personal opinion, I never liked that style of football, even when Spain won the world cup with it, just bores me.

Last few games though have been something very different, and edge of your seat football, loving it, just want to see us keep it going now.

Did you actually watch us last season?

 

[davek]

I think he has changed it round, but there are to be a bit more subtlety than "just hoof it long" approach.

Statistics give us great reliability but I suppose watching the games gives you a bit of an insight as well. I think we are hitting Lukaku earlier and also they are not aimless passes at his head but increasingly to his feet or better still in behind. We are not just aimlessly whacking it long, nor has we completely abandoned the principles of keeping the ball. I'd hate to see us going back to using the "unsworth ball".

I think the speed of play going forward has also increased. Whether this is tactical or just that the players are now playing with a level of confidence to fulfil these requirements is up for debate. There has been a bit of a eureka moment between Lukaku, Martinez and the rest of the team over the last week or so. He is playing on the shoulder more, putting himself about better and we are feeding him with better service.

It's easy to take this away from the manager and say it's good fortune. There is some fortune in it, good managers are lucky managers. Having said that, all managers can stumble upon something but what separates managers is the ability to learn from it and adapt.

People think about Moyes great 451 formation was a master calculation thought out in his office. It wasn't. I remember Campbell being injured and suspended for Manchester United away. We had previously played Gravesen and Carsley in Central Midfield (unsuccessfully, we got whacked 4-1 at home to Arsenal). Cahill was due to make his debut. Moyes in typically conservative fashion deployed all 3 in a 4-5-1. We played well and drew 0-0. We kept the team the same and went on a winning run and it never changed after that.

It was good fortune of Campbell not being available that allowed that system to come into fruition. But the credit needs to go to Moyes generalising from it.

The same for Martinez. He played Kone up top with Lukaku to do a lot of his link up work for him and allow for Lukaku to focus on what he is good at. He also played Osman to provide some creativity.

The idea that just hoofing the ball like people are saying has been the change is untrue. There has been a change. I hope we can enjoy that developing over the next couple of months. We have a two month trial to improve now ready for next season. I think next season, with a couple of smart additions and Lukaku having really turned a corner we are going to be well worth watching. We hammered a team 3-0 yesterday without ever getting out of 2nd gear and struggling for confidence. Rather than pointing out an "I told you so" attitude I hope we can all enjoy the upturn in form.

I dont think he's changed it as much as the message finally getting through to the players.

Coleman said in radio interview before the game yesterday that Martinez tore into them at HT against Kiev over the failure to start out with the tempo they then did adopt later - but only after they fell behind and had the crowd howling for that change. It's clear from that Martinez is not getting this message across forcefully enough, often enough. I dont know who he has in the coaching staff he relies on to give these players a kick up the arse but whomever it is they are doing a sh1t job and need binning.

On the sideways/forward thing: I wouldn't get embroiled or obsessive about that. To me that's just a matter of movement ahead being good, bad or indifferent. If there's no one shifting their arses into space (or players ahead just dont have the gumption to find space, to be more precise) then necessarily you get more sideways passing and ball retention. This essentially goes down to personnel. Players need bringing in who can free themselves of markers and get on the ball that will be fed through to them (and the flip side of that is that we need quality play out the back from a CD unit worthy of the system who can give us that impetus straight away from the moment Howard rolls the ball out to them).

 

[davek]

The difference is confidence, for me. We've started to show some of last season's form because we've actually had:

1) Players moving/asking for the ball more up top
2) Players taking chances with their passes forward
3) A little bit of creative know-how as Osman's been playing well since he has come back

Look at the build-up to the penalty in the week. It was superb quick, short passing football, in the last ten minutes of a game where we desperately needed a winner. The mixing of more direct play and better quick passing in the final third has meant we're more a of a threat, like last season. I actually do believe the crowd have played their part too, like. I think someone needed to violently shake the players to wake them up and it's possible the fume at 0-1 forced them to start playing.

Spot on.