Politico

[chicoazul]

Been doing some thinking D/D/MN/TXB/WT/N.

I know that some things were put on the ban list, rightfully so as they god melted up the max, but would it be possible to take politics off the leash?

Its a big mad now but we used to have some boss debates on here ages ago, with lots of sensible posters contributing. We've gone a little soccer am-ish now but I miss those well put together, thought out threads.

If anyone acted a tit then they could be banned.

Its just an electronic football forum like.


Anyway, chew it over.

 

[davek]

Complex systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Evolution is a good example. The basic concept is that complex systems cannot be effectively controlled from the top down, and the most effective management is to allow things to evolve from the bottom up.

So taken in a political context, the ultimate top down system is a 1984 style state where the government try to control every facet of peoples lives. The ultimate bottom up system is a form of anarchy.

In most complex systems though basic rules exist that provide a degree of structure to the system. So in the evolutionary system there are the rules of nature, but within those rules individual creatures are free to act as they please (assuming no god exists that's controlling things of course). No government exists for the natural world and it's evolved into the most amazing thing imaginable.

It works because it has that feedback. Survival of the fittest. Obviously whenever such a phrase is mentioned people jump towards social darwinism, of letting the poor and the weak rot, but I don't think mankind is like that, we appear to have a natural compassion for others, providing those others are generally known to us. The banking system won't improve because it hasn't had that feedback, the bad banks are being kept alive when they should have gone bankrupt, and their actions should have been ridded from the system. So the mistakes will be taken on to the next generation and those mistakes replicated again.

Government is little better because we've had the same parties now for centuries by and large. By contrast if you compare the FTSE 100 now to 25 years ago and the turnover will have been immense, and with that turnover comes fresh ideas, fresh impetus.

In many ways you're right in that what is good for society is good for the individual, but the problem with that notion is that I suspect you mean that the societal good is determined by a government. It's a simple logic that the brains of the few simply cannot outdo the brains of the many. The notion of crowdsourcing has become popular of late and it runs along similar lines. 100 people, each trying different ways of achieving a goal will always beat 1 individual trying to achieve the same goal, regardless of how smart the 1 individual is.

It's this basic principle that makes markets more effective than nationalised companies because in a competitive market you're not putting all your eggs into one basket.

That's all old hat. The rational individual (AKA the slimy, navel gazing, self serving rock dweller) has had his long inglorious day in the sun. We're in for an extended spell of big government now. Public sector growing; private sector contracting. It's only a matter of time before the bullet is bitten on Nationalisation. The spivs and kulaks better batten down the hatches.

 

[chicoazul]

Nationalisation is the way forward, we need to regain some back of what we lost and put preventative measures in place to counter the high profit self paying fat cats which modern society have bred.

Im not saying full on socialism but an equalibrium needs to exist to serve all quarters of the population. We'd over done that capitalism thing a tad too much.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

It's quaint this talk of government as somehow serving the people, like the people working in the public sector are somehow pure and innocent in contrast to the selfish horrors working in the private sector.

The reality is that people are pretty much the same, regardless of which sector they work in. Power by and large corrupts any who have too much of it. In the private sector power is curtailed by competition, or at least that's what happens most of the time. In the public sector there's no competition at all, no prospect of us ever shopping elsewhere because there is nowhere else to shop.

Monopolies are rightly opposed in the private sector because they're bad for the consumer, ie us the public. They should be equally opposed in the public sector for the very same reason. Remember, people are people, if they'll abuse a monpoly in the private sector they sure will in the public sector as well.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

That's all old hat. The rational individual (AKA the slimy, navel gazing, self serving rock dweller)

I love you to you crazy old nut job b)

 

[chicoazul]

But not without zero restraint like they have done mate.

At least with it being nationalised there is a certain element of accountability.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

There was restraint. It was called the FSA. By nationalising the banks you're effectively saying that the likes of the FSA weren't competent enough to regulate the banking system, but we'll give them a bank of their own to run. Crazy decision.

I don't think capitalism pretends to make things rosy all the time, and life isn't like that either, but as long as the feedback process is in place then things improve. Feedback in this instance, where the mistakes were so vast, would have to involve banks going under. I don't see why this didn't happen. Savings are all pretty much guaranteed now anyway and it would have weeded out the dead wood.

Alas now we have a government trying to borrow themselves out of a debt crisis. It's akin to trying to dig yourself out of a hole.

 

[chicoazul]

Do you vote Labour mate?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Don't usually vote.

 

[chicoazul]

I dont either.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Solidarity brother.

 

[chicoazul]

Defo, comrade.

 

[davek]

Nationalisation is the way forward, we need to regain some back of what we lost and put preventative measures in place to counter the high profit self paying fat cats which modern society have bred.

Im not saying full on socialism but an equalibrium needs to exist to serve all quarters of the population. We'd over done that capitalism thing a tad too much.

Spot on that. Something like our Scandinavian cousins had going for themselves. A social contract. Massive taxation making the pips squeek...as the saying used to go.

Barbarism is the only alternative. And none of us want that.

Time for the spivs to pipe down. No one's listening to their whingeing threats about ******* off to friendlier climes if they dont get stroked nicely. No place to run to now for 'the wealth makers'. It's a cold world out there and I'm loving their discomfort.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

You need more smilies Dave, I can't tell if you're taking the piss. Oops, sorry sir, I'll get back to work so you don't have to. I suppose forcing people to give up large percentage of their income isn't barbaric as long as you're on the receiving end.

Nice to see Marxism is thriving outside of Russia though.

 

[davek]

You need more smilies Dave, I can't tell if you're taking the piss. Oops, sorry sir, I'll get back to work so you don't have to. I suppose forcing people to give up large percentage of their income isn't barbaric as long as you're on the receiving end.

Nice to see Marxism is thriving outside of Russia though.

I'm not joking. You're not representative of the zeitgeist Bruce. Your thinking is from another period. You should pray that the State continues to immerse itself in the economy, because if it doesn't and the crash is dealt with by the private sector being left to 'find its equilibrium' there's going to be bedlam. Personal debt in Britain stands at £1.4 trillion and a lot of people will get very angry if they're forced out of a job or their homes. Consumption is dead. The State is, as the hackneyed phrase goes, buyer of last resort. The market has had it's day for the forseeable.

You dont have to be a dialectician to know which way the winds blowin'.

Oh, and by the way, dont you worry about my employment status. I'm tucked securely in the public sector and have been for the past couple of decades. Good luck with the entrepreneurship.

 

[chicoazul]

Nice to see Marxism is thriving outside of Russia though.

I prefer to call it evolved socialism.

puts on beret*