New Everton Stadium Discussion

Tom Hughes said:
I haven't read all of the latest revision of the transport plan yet, so perhaps some of the detail has been added and the issues have been ironed out..... because the earliest version was woefully lacking.

With destination Kirkby, the transport plan also appeared comprehensive at first, with plenty of schematics and explanation of a seemingly plausible park and ride schemes with some figures to support it. Wyness famously even called it the most accessible stadium in the country. However, none of it stood up to the most basic scrutiny, park and ride became park and walk when it was realised that the number of buses required simply didnt exist and eventually decended to park and treck, with the infamous crush-loading on the trains and marshalling area with several hour dispersal predictions. It was literally laughed out of the inquiry after the umpteenth revision came with knowsley council's own damning small print clause that would've seriously cut the permitted capacity to less than GP, after they'd found that their own transport modellers couldn't make it all work. The logistics simply didn't add up.

The issue with BMD is that it is currently in a bit of a public transport blind spot with no real provision at the site. The northern line is a great saving grace of course, but it's a single island platform and over 1 km away. The network also only serves a small proportion of the Liverpool conurbation with approx 6k/hr capacity in both north and south directions (by comparison some London stadiums have multiples of that capacity, yet are still notorious for the early darters trying to catch those trains). Another purpose built station at Vauxhall was originally spoken about with some optimism and would've certainly helped to improve dispersal logistics, but so far that hasn't been forthcoming with Colin Chong saying they'd drawn a complete blank on that, a few months ago.

The other blindingly obvious issue is that the walkable catchment for parking is more than halved by being on the waterfront, with also a much reduced road grid density compared to the tightly packed terraced area around Walton. With a far greater number of available major traffic lanes in all directions. That can never be matched at a waterfront location, and is the motive for the club stipulating that they would need to at least reverse the current ratio of 60:40 private/public transport to avoid serious congestion and achieve desired access and dispersal rates.

Of course the whole idea of moving closer to town is to greatly increase the numbers of people using public transport with all districts in the city region having regular services into town and all of its major local and national transport hubs. I think it's fair to say that BMD is right at the furthest edge of that envelope, with the walk from Lime Street station for instance very similar in distance to that to GP.

Yes, many things can be done to extend or redirect a proportion of the existing bus routes to BMD on match days where turnaround times can be achieved without affecting schedules, but again much will depend on if those roads can support that level of increased traffic and pedestrian footfall to allow the flow.
As I said, i haven't read the latest docs fully, but i didn't see any evidence of modelling in the earliest version to show how we all get to and from the site effectively.
Click to expand...

A few points...

As I've already pointed out, there's absolutely no reason anybody will need to walk from Lime Street. Connecting trains are available to stations that are closer. Buses of course will be needed, but I'll come to that.

Do you always measure in km? Just asking, because you say "over a km" and I say 'under a mile" :p Sandhiills is exactly the same distance to BMD as Kirkdale is to Goodison.

I've already stated that buses need to be sorted. That whole area of Liverpool is massively under serviced by buses. There's only ever been three buses that I know of that have even gone to that part of Liverpool. There was the 103 service from Waterloo to Aigburth which only used to run every 30 mins between 6am-9:30am and 3pm -6:30pm Mon-Fri. Last time I checked, the 103 service had ceased. The 47 (Southport to Liverpool, Liverpool to Southport) used to go down there, but I've not been on that bus for about 5 years now, so not sure if it still does. There's also a Vauxhall Circular I think.

I suspect with the amount of development due to take part in that area, then Merseytravel etc will be under pressure to ensure permanent bus routes are in place.

- Sure, it would be great to have a new shiny station, but it's not a massive must, is it? I really think people are underestimating how many people will be happy to walk from Old Hall Street which is less than 1.5 miles away (I know people who park about that far from Goodison.) James Street is also an easy walk too, especially if you know the best way to go ( cross straight over The Strand and it's a straight walk with barely any interruptions)

Will it be the most efficient of grounds in terms of accessibility? Probably not, but I don't foresee any massive issues provided Merseytravel and the bus companies pull their finger out, which they're gonna have to do, in all honestly.
 
Tom Hughes said:
I haven't read all of the latest revision of the transport plan yet, so perhaps some of the detail has been added and the issues have been ironed out..... because the earliest version was woefully lacking.

With destination Kirkby, the transport plan also appeared comprehensive at first, with plenty of schematics and explanation of a seemingly plausible park and ride schemes with some figures to support it. Wyness famously even called it the most accessible stadium in the country. However, none of it stood up to the most basic scrutiny, park and ride became park and walk when it was realised that the number of buses required simply didnt exist and eventually decended to park and treck, with the infamous crush-loading on the trains and marshalling area with several hour dispersal predictions. It was literally laughed out of the inquiry after the umpteenth revision came with knowsley council's own damning small print clause that would've seriously cut the permitted capacity to less than GP, after they'd found that their own transport modellers couldn't make it all work. The logistics simply didn't add up.

The issue with BMD is that it is currently in a bit of a public transport blind spot with no real provision at the site. The northern line is a great saving grace of course, but it's a single island platform and over 1 km away. The network also only serves a small proportion of the Liverpool conurbation with approx 6k/hr capacity in both north and south directions (by comparison some London stadiums have multiples of that capacity, yet are still notorious for the early darters trying to catch those trains). Another purpose built station at Vauxhall was originally spoken about with some optimism and would've certainly helped to improve dispersal logistics, but so far that hasn't been forthcoming with Colin Chong saying they'd drawn a complete blank on that, a few months ago.

The other blindingly obvious issue is that the walkable catchment for parking is more than halved by being on the waterfront, with also a much reduced road grid density compared to the tightly packed terraced area around Walton. With a far greater number of available major traffic lanes in all directions. That can never be matched at a waterfront location, and is the motive for the club stipulating that they would need to at least reverse the current ratio of 60:40 private/public transport to avoid serious congestion and achieve desired access and dispersal rates.

Of course the whole idea of moving closer to town is to greatly increase the numbers of people using public transport with all districts in the city region having regular services into town and all of its major local and national transport hubs. I think it's fair to say that BMD is right at the furthest edge of that envelope, with the walk from Lime Street station for instance very similar in distance to that to GP.

Yes, many things can be done to extend or redirect a proportion of the existing bus routes to BMD on match days where turnaround times can be achieved without affecting schedules, but again much will depend on if those roads can support that level of increased traffic and pedestrian footfall to allow the flow.
As I said, i haven't read the latest docs fully, but i didn't see any evidence of modelling in the earliest version to show how we all get to and from the site effectively.
Click to expand...

Further exacerbated by the plan to implement a direction of flow for traffic, pedestrianising the dock Road from town and pushing all vehicular traffic down Great Howard Street, to ensure a pull through to the ground and get them away from there.

There are other plans in place, at a city level, but will take many years to come to fruition.
A waterfront walk is being added, but obviously doesn't decrease the distance. Talk of pop-up bars/restaurants along the way so that people who can spend longer to make their walk can amble along. I doubt this would be feasible at all games though with weather and general timing being an issue.
 
TheCount said:
View attachment 123132
Click to expand...

Given the number of posts on here as to how long it takes from point A to point B by foot, it doesn't look like I'm the only person who has timed various routes. Looks like I'm the only one who does it with a watch that works properly, though Seriously, I would suggest everybody has a couple of dry runs when you can. That way you won't miss to the kick off for the first match.
 

John from Bootle said:
A few points...

As I've already pointed out, there's absolutely no reason anybody will need to walk from Lime Street. Connecting trains are available to stations that are closer. Buses of course will be needed, but I'll come to that.

Do you always measure in km? Just asking, because you say "over a km" and I say 'under a mile" :p Sandhiills is exactly the same distance to BMD as Kirkdale is to Goodison.

I've already stated that buses need to be sorted. That whole area of Liverpool is massively under serviced by buses. There's only ever been three buses that I know of that have even gone to that part of Liverpool. There was the 103 service from Waterloo to Aigburth which only used to run every 30 mins between 6am-9:30am and 3pm -6:30pm Mon-Fri. Last time I checked, the 103 service had ceased. The 47 (Southport to Liverpool, Liverpool to Southport) used to go down there, but I've not been on that bus for about 5 years now, so not sure if it still does. There's also a Vauxhall Circular I think.

I suspect with the amount of development due to take part in that area, then Merseytravel etc will be under pressure to ensure permanent bus routes are in place.

- Sure, it would be great to have a new shiny station, but it's not a massive must, is it? I really think people are underestimating how many people will be happy to walk from Old Hall Street which is less than 1.5 miles away (I know people who park about that far from Goodison.) James Street is also an easy walk too, especially if you know the best way to go ( cross straight over The Strand and it's a straight walk with barely any interruptions)

Will it be the most efficient of grounds in terms of accessibility? Probably not, but I don't foresee any massive issues provided Merseytravel and the bus companies pull their finger out, which they're gonna have to do, in all honestly.
Click to expand...

Yes, the distance from Kirkdale to GP is not dissimilar to Sandhills, but the point is, at present this only serves a very small percentage of our matchgoers with the walk putting off most of those coming from town/south Liverpool/wirral line who prefer to get off at sandhills for the soccerbus, and even combined are still relatively low numbers overall. Of course, they at least help GPs dispersal rates by taking thousands of vehicles off the road, but nowhere near the proportions we're talking about at BMD.

At the destination Kirkby inquiry it was explained by merseytravel that there was very little flexibility to add lots of additional services in terms of adding buses and trains and that private companies incur a subsidised cost factor and have historically had little natural business case take up. Which is why soccerbus consists of just a handful of buses which is barely adequate for current post match useage on those services.... so any increased provision for this site would probably be best served by extending a proportion of existing services from the South end/eastern corridors via a looped route using say Great Howard St, Boundary St, Scotland Rd (although these will have to be time-allowed within current scheduling to be viable), with some Northern Liverpool services being redirected doing the reverse route into town possibly being less time constrainedbeing more direct. However, I haven't seen mention of this, or it being being modelled (apart from vague references to some shuttle buses), so I'm not sure if existing traffic flows and junctions would allow this to work effectively using the relatively few routes available.

I mentioned the walk from Lime St because it was mentioned by a previous poster, and illustrates the perhaps slightly false perception of distance to BMD from the city centre's national rail hub. He asked about taxies and walking times etc. I said that if he was currently inclined to use a taxi from Lime St, then he probably would here too, as the difference in distance was probably as little as 10%, but with far less alternative routes and traffic lanes.
As you say, he could also choose to jump on the wirral line, change at James St and get a train one stop to Moorfields to still have a 1.5 mile walk or change again on to the northern line to Sandhills for the shorter walk. (Although he could do that directly via a change at central)

Yes, we probably all know people who walk fairly large distances to GP, but you can't plan transport logistics based on those extremes when we are looking at the relative convenience of moving large numbers in relatively small windows. A small core of our fanbase will travel to all corners of the globe to watch us, but that isn't a case for putting the stadium "anywhere".

As I said, i haven't fully read the latest revision so maybe there is greater clarity, but upto the earlier version, it looked like there will be a far greater onus placed on "Shank's pony", at least until a lot of new infrastructure is in place.... and whether or not the site and Liverpool water yields its own dedicated mass public transport network is also yet to be seen. I've heard mention of monorails and even an elevated rail from Brunswick dock to sandhills and other merseyrail extensions to open it all up, but all that will probably require far greater take up of plots than we have seen thus far.
 

Tom Hughes said:
Yes, the distance from Kirkdale to GP is not dissimilar to Sandhills, but the point is, at present this only serves a very small percentage of our matchgoers with the walk putting off most of those coming from town/south Liverpool/wirral line who prefer to get off at sandhills for the soccerbus, and even combined are still relatively low numbers overall. Of course, they at least help GPs dispersal rates by taking thousands of vehicles off the road, but nowhere near the proportions we're talking about at BMD.

At the destination Kirkby inquiry it was explained by merseytravel that there was very little flexibility to add lots of additional services in terms of adding buses and trains and that private companies incur a subsidised cost factor and have historically had little natural business case take up. Which is why soccerbus consists of just a handful of buses which is barely adequate for current post match useage on those services.... so any increased provision for this site would probably be best served by extending a proportion of existing services from the South end/eastern corridors via a looped route using say Great Howard St, Boundary St, Scotland Rd (although these will have to be time-allowed within current scheduling to be viable), with some Northern Liverpool services being redirected doing the reverse route into town possibly being less time constrainedbeing more direct. However, I haven't seen mention of this, or it being being modelled (apart from vague references to some shuttle buses), so I'm not sure if existing traffic flows and junctions would allow this to work effectively using the relatively few routes available.

I mentioned the walk from Lime St because it was mentioned by a previous poster, and illustrates the perhaps slightly false perception of distance to BMD from the city centre's national rail hub. He asked about taxies and walking times etc. I said that if he was currently inclined to use a taxi from Lime St, then he probably would here too, as the difference in distance was probably as little as 10%, but with far less alternative routes and traffic lanes.
As you say, he could also choose to jump on the wirral line, change at James St and get a train one stop to Moorfields to still have a 1.5 mile walk or change again on to the northern line to Sandhills for the shorter walk. (Although he could do that directly via a change at central)

Yes, we probably all know people who walk fairly large distances to GP, but you can't plan transport logistics based on those extremes when we are looking at the relative convenience of moving large numbers in relatively small windows. A small core of our fanbase will travel to all corners of the globe to watch us, but that isn't a case for putting the stadium "anywhere".

As I said, i haven't fully read the latest revision so maybe there is greater clarity, but upto the earlier version, it looked like there will be a far greater onus placed on "Shank's pony", at least until a lot of new infrastructure is in place.... and whether or not the site and Liverpool water yields its own dedicated mass public transport network is also yet to be seen. I've heard mention of monorails and even an elevated rail from Brunswick dock to sandhills and other merseyrail extensions to open it all up, but all that will probably require far greater take up of plots than we have seen thus far.
Click to expand...

Great post. Nail on head several times there. Well done. There are points which match goers need to take on board re. how they are going to get to from BMD. We will get there because that's what we do and I'm confident, although not fantastic, our public transport infrastructure will cope, but people need to give consideration to their new route and mode of transport. It's a great location which will ultimately be better served by public transport as it knits into the city centre but that will take time.
 
Dr Baxter said:
Great post. Nail on head several times there. Well done. There are points which match goers need to take on board re. how they are going to get to from BMD. We will get there because that's what we do and I'm confident, although not fantastic, our public transport infrastructure will cope, but people need to give consideration to their new route and mode of transport. It's a great location which will ultimately be better served by public transport as it knits into the city centre but that will take time.
Click to expand...

I suspect (and hope) Everton will end up funding improvements like upgrading Sandhills. Moshiri wasn’t bothered about spending several million on tarting up Goodison even though we were planning to move and a similar figure could see Sandhills fit for purpose. The new trains have up to 1000 capacity for a six car train and Sandhills has up to 18 trains an hour passing through, so utilising that capacity alone would have a huge impact. Add in maybe finding shuttle buses running to the Pier head (where people could access other nearby stations, the bus station and car parks) along roads closed to traffic (Regent Rd/ Princess Parade) and you would be getting towards providing an efficient system.
 
Dr Baxter said:
Beg to differ. Looking forward to trying a few routes as discussed on here, just to try and work out a plan of attack for match day. When we get back to normal I'll walk it and let you know. For information, I'm late 50's and 15 and a half stone.
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Dale St still for me as I live around there. Only change is instead of the northern line to Kirkdale it's a 20 min walk from The Excelsior.
 

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