New Everton Stadium Discussion

[PhilM]

How long is it now that Peel have owned that land? It's got to be close to 20 years.

They've actually struck lucky with Everton taking the Northern boundary, I'm sure they'll be a renewed appetite for developers working south from Nelson Dock in the coming years.

You'd hope in 10 years the whole area has a completely different feel.

You’d hope so, and I’m fairly confident there will be investment. However, Peel themselves said that Liverpool Waters is likely a 50 year project.

It may not be as quick as some would hope or predict, and there’ll be refinements of the plans as they go along, but it will be built eventually.

 

[muckers]

@Tom Hughes Tom, do you know the height of the back row of the Kemlyn stand at Anfield?

And how that compares to our current Top Balcony and BMD?

 

[Noggsy blue]

Jul 2021 - Aug 2023...
Watch as our new home rises from Bramley Moore Dock

 

[Tom Hughes]

The Bramley Moore end was supposed to be the slow burner and probably one of the last to be developed. If I remember rightly, in the initial outline proposals it was only really earmarked for mid-height, mid-density residential/commercial with Marina etc. I think the nearby sewage plant was always going to make it a hard sell, and they didn't really envisage completion there for 30yrs+. When KEIOC approached them, they quite firmly believed that they didn't need/want a stadium as part of their development. Just 10yrs later and that all changed.

Given that the whole scheme had stalled, the club was in a position of strength. I'm surprised Moshiri/USM didn't push harder as the real catalyst project developer to either get Clarence dock (already filled and half the distance from town), or a bigger slice of the whole site for some enabling developments or at least for firm assurances that Vauxhall station would be put in for 10 streets and the stadium. The station was part of the deal initially. When the commonwealth games bid failed, it was dropped too. I think Merseytravel and LCC played a bit of hard ball after the club didn't cover some of the initial costs or take them up on the finance deal. Perhaps they just thought they could get the club to foot the bill for the station after they had helped secure the site and planning etc. It meant the club had to adjust the transport plan and Colin Chong expressed some exasperation over it at the time.

 

[The binman chronicles]

@Tom Hughes Tom, do you know the height of the back row of the Kemlyn stand at Anfield?

And how that compares to our current Top Balcony and BMD?

Hopefully Tom knows exactly but a rough estimate is 15 metres to the back of their stand. To better gauge the new AR back row height is within a couple of meters of our new stands (on the three sides) at around 31-32 metres. The TB will be in the mid twenties.

 

[Tom Hughes]

@Tom Hughes Tom, do you know the height of the back row of the Kemlyn stand at Anfield?

And how that compares to our current Top Balcony and BMD?

Not at home at the mo, but got the original drawings for our mainstand somewhere and quite sure the Kemlyn's drawings on a laptop too. Surveyed both about 25yrs ago. I'll try to find them later if someone else doesn't get the numbers first.

 

[Dr Baxter]

The Bramley Moore end was supposed to be the slow burner and probably one of the last to be developed. If I remember rightly, in the initial outline proposals it was only really earmarked for mid-height, mid-density residential/commercial with Marina etc. I think the nearby sewage plant was always going to make it a hard sell, and they didn't really envisage completion there for 30yrs+. When KEIOC approached them, they quite firmly believed that they didn't need/want a stadium as part of their development. Just 10yrs later and that all changed.

Given that the whole scheme had stalled, the club was in a position of strength. I'm surprised Moshiri/USM didn't push harder as the real catalyst project developer to either get Clarence dock (already filled and half the distance from town), or a bigger slice of the whole site for some enabling developments or at least for firm assurances that Vauxhall station would be put in for 10 streets and the stadium. The station was part of the deal initially. When the commonwealth games bid failed, it was dropped too. I think Merseytravel and LCC played a bit of hard ball after the club didn't cover some of the initial costs or take them up on the finance deal. Perhaps they just thought they could get the club to foot the bill for the station after they had helped secure the site and planning etc. It meant the club had to adjust the transport plan and Colin Chong expressed some exasperation over it at the time.

Some good points there, Tom. But as the saying goes we are where we are. That said, who knows what the next few years might hold. The potential of the north docks right next to our stadium might make the club itself more attractive to potential buyers who might wish to invest in more leisure facilities like hotels and such.

Also agree about Clarence Dock. Better site with better transport links, no doubt about it. Unfortunately, given the pathetic nature of planning in Liverpool and the suburban mindset of people calling the shots, I suspect the naysayers would have had their way and it would never have happened. In fact, despite our near miss with the King's Dock, I think Bramley-Moore is as close to the city centre as we could have got. Just my opinion, of course.

 

[Dougie]

Some good points there, Tom. But as the saying goes we are where we are. That said, who knows what the next few years might hold. The potential of the north docks right next to our stadium might make the club itself more attractive to potential buyers who might wish to invest in more leisure facilities like hotels and such.

Also agree about Clarence Dock. Better site with better transport links, no doubt about it. Unfortunately, given the pathetic nature of planning in Liverpool and the suburban mindset of people calling the shots, I suspect the naysayers would have had their way and it would never have happened. In fact, despite our near miss with the King's Dock, I think Bramley-Moore is as close to the city centre as we could have got. Just my opinion, of course.

The kings dock looked fantastic. But I still don’t know how it would have worked. The arena there currently holds 10,000 and when it’s full, the traffic and pedestrians is a nightmare. Times that by more than 5 it would have been chaos. Yeah would have had transport links but still would have been a major issue on a match day. Even worse on Saturday with people going the shops in town.

 

[BNJ1878]

Some good points there, Tom. But as the saying goes we are where we are. That said, who knows what the next few years might hold. The potential of the north docks right next to our stadium might make the club itself more attractive to potential buyers who might wish to invest in more leisure facilities like hotels and such.

Also agree about Clarence Dock. Better site with better transport links, no doubt about it. Unfortunately, given the pathetic nature of planning in Liverpool and the suburban mindset of people calling the shots, I suspect the naysayers would have had their way and it would never have happened. In fact, despite our near miss with the King's Dock, I think Bramley-Moore is as close to the city centre as we could have got. Just my opinion, of course.

I think the whole point of getting Bramley Moore off Peel was because it was next to the water treatment plant.

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have handed over Clarence Dock, even if we were the only interested party.

 

[joey_macmo]

I understand this isn’t new information but I hadn’t seen it.

I’m surprised that’s the only alteration being made, I thought they’d put platforms on the outside of the lines to increase capacity.

 

[BullensRoad]

As much as I want the stadium to be as close to the city centre as possible. I think having it at Clarence would have been a bad idea.

Can't imagine investors wanting to build office and residential either side of a football stadium. BMD dock was the best decision (being next to the sewage works) and starts bringing life to the neglected northern docks.

Just read Clarence was infilled to build a power station which got knocked down decades ago. Sad they didn't think to rebuild or repurpose the power station for something else? At least with our construction it can be turned back to the dock with the existing wall (hopefully they remember in 100 or so years time).

In an alternate history we would have this columns instead of the turrets:

 

[sbbefc]

The kings dock looked fantastic. But I still don’t know how it would have worked. The arena there currently holds 10,000 and when it’s full, the traffic and pedestrians is a nightmare. Times that by more than 5 it would have been chaos. Yeah would have had transport links but still would have been a major issue on a match day. Even worse on Saturday with people going the shops in town.

Personally, I dont think the city centre needs a huge stadium that close. I like it as it is, I don't think having thousands of football fans along with the associated traffic would be a good thing. Obviously, you get a few football fans on match days milling around as it is, but it doesn't feel dominated by supporters. I like that.

BM does/will do a fabulous job in bookending the waterfront. It's a very short taxi drive from the centre and buses will go regularly. Fans that want to amble over on foot can do. Bars etc will soon move in and break up the walk. It feels a good fit to me.

 

[BullensRoad]

I understand this isn’t new information but I hadn’t seen it.

I’m surprised that’s the only alteration being made, I thought they’d put platforms on the outside of the lines to increase capacity.

Class, that accounts great (sometimes a bit overly ambitious though).

That'll shave time for an extra pint when you get to the ground.

 

[Tom Hughes]

@Tom Hughes Tom, do you know the height of the back row of the Kemlyn stand at Anfield?

And how that compares to our current Top Balcony and BMD?

Can't find my survey doc for kemlyn Rd at the mo.... it was about 5 computers ago, so hardly surprising.

However, scaling off photocopied drawings, I make the back row tread approx 23.2m above pavement.... which makes it approx 21m above pitch. Someone, might have more accurate numbers.

Our Top Balcony rear row is 82.35ft above datum, which equates to 25.1m, or just under 25m above pitch. Hope that helps for your comparison.

 

[Tom Hughes]

The kings dock looked fantastic. But I still don’t know how it would have worked. The arena there currently holds 10,000 and when it’s full, the traffic and pedestrians is a nightmare. Times that by more than 5 it would have been chaos. Yeah would have had transport links but still would have been a major issue on a match day. Even worse on Saturday with people going the shops in town.

I've been to the arena quite a few times and had no problems getting to or from it using public transport tbh.... I believe there were some issues when it first opened. I've always walked over the strand and straight on to a bus or into town for a few drinks. The city centre copes with well over 100k every rush hr. The strand can grind to a halt for a bit, but once the majority have crossed that's it really. Yes, 50k+ is a much bigger proposition, but summer pops, tall ships and river festivals have had similar or bigger numbers in the past. The other thing is, the difference between an arena and a football stadium is that football stadia have a more regular crowd with greater familiarity and local knowledge. That proximity to all the public transport hubs would've been a real winner... hopefully it can be replicated at BMD with a comprehensive shuttle system (and a dedicated people mover in the future).