My fear going forward - what about the youth?

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

12 games.

TWELVE!

I mean, he did manage at another PL club like

Surely that goes into the test sample?

 

[Catfish Blues]

As a club we have always prided ourselves on our academy but looking from the outside it appears now that it's going to be less important in the short term future.

A complete sin if you ask me.

Why ?

There is a huge amount of money coming into Premier League clubs. Those people who say "we must give youth a chance" are therefore basically saying, no, we don't want to spend the TV money, we'd rather be all Corinithian and build the guts of a team from our own small pool of youngsters.

It's a nice idea, and if you've got an academy full of youngsters who have the potential to be better players than those you could buy, then all is good. But they're not, There are a few who will probably make it at Premier League level, but there are a lot who never will and will end up playing in the lower leagues.

Realistically, who from the U23's is actually likely to cement a a place in the squad who isn't already there ?

Excluding Holgate, who's already been used, I'd say Davies and Walsh look good enough. Jones and Calvert-Lewin might be, but though we have some decent academy players, we have very few who really stand out.

Essentially there is a group of people / posters who are almost obsessed with playing youngsters, partly just for the sake of it and partly because it makes us all feel good when someone comes through the system to be a success. But you're living in a dreamworld.

 

[jinkyali]

Why ?

There is a huge amount of money coming into Premier League clubs. Those people who say "we must give youth a chance" are therefore basically saying, no, we don't want to spend the TV money, we'd rather be all Corinithian and build the guts of a team from our own small pool of youngsters.

It's a nice idea, and if you've got an academy full of youngsters who have the potential to be better players than those you could buy, then all is good. But they're not, There are a few who will probably make it at Premier League level, but there are a lot who never will and will end up playing in the lower leagues.

Realistically, who from the U23's is actually likely to cement a a place in the squad who isn't already there ?

Excluding Holgate, who's already been used, I'd say Davies and Walsh look good enough. Jones and Calvert-Lewin might be, but though we have some decent academy players, we have very few who really stand out.

Essentially there is a group of people / posters who are almost obsessed with playing youngsters, partly just for the sake of it and partly because it makes us all feel good when someone comes through the system to be a success. But you're living in a dreamworld.

Firstly, in terms of spending money I have no issue with going out buying players if they improve the squad. Thus far I would say only Williams & Gana have improved the first team squad and to a lesser extent, Bolasie. This thread isnt so much about spending money to improve the squad, but the long term prospects of our youth, especially when you consider other factors as mentioned previously.

In terms of the under 23's, I would say that Holgate, Galloway, Davies, Walsh, Dowell, Calvert Lewin all have an outstanding chance. But again; you miss the point somewhat. These boys NEED the opportuntiy to showcase the talent. This opportunity is lessening and there is a real risk that they will go by the way side.

You probably dont realise but 'making it' as much about ability as it is about having an opportunity. The old adage that 'they will make it if there good enough' is rubbish. Are you seriously telling me Valencia and Cleverley for example are better options for the midfield or wide positions than say Dowell or Davies? Equally, how else can they prove they are good enough without the opportunity to play?
Did Holgate really deserve to be dropped for Coleman? Is Galloway really a worse option than Oviedo?

The fact that these young kids arent getting a chance IS NOT a reflection of there ability; its a reflection on the new management regime in place. Equally, a squad overhaul is required and pressure on the new board for signings. It looks bleak for the young lads.

I would never play a young kid for the sake of it as that is ridiculous. But what else is ridiculous is having Kone/Valencia take up squad places when we have young kids with just as much ability as them who arent getting any look in. Thats not me 'living in a dreamworld' and yearning for a team full of youth. Its me hoping that the young guys who dedicate years of there early life to the club and have proven they are good enough at every level they have been at get an opportunity over players who frankly have never been good enough and havent produced within the Premier League on a consistent basis.

On that point, why is it right that Kone/Cleverley/Valencia/Gibson command a squad place when its proven they arent good enough or reliable enough to warrant a squad place?

This isnt a thread which says 'we must play youth only'. The issue is more wide than that. Put yourself in a young lads position.
Everton and Liverpool are after you to sign. Why would you choose Everton over Liverpool right now? I choose them as they are our most direct local rivals for the players we go for in the area.

 

[Lanolin]

Firstly, in terms of spending money I have no issue with going out buying players if they improve the squad. Thus far I would say only Williams & Gana have improved the first team squad and to a lesser extent, Bolasie. This thread isnt so much about spending money to improve the squad, but the long term prospects of our youth, especially when you consider other factors as mentioned previously.

In terms of the under 23's, I would say that Holgate, Galloway, Davies, Walsh, Dowell, Calvert Lewin all have an outstanding chance. But again; you miss the point somewhat. These boys NEED the opportuntiy to showcase the talent. This opportunity is lessening and there is a real risk that they will go by the way side.

You probably dont realise but 'making it' as much about ability as it is about having an opportunity. The old adage that 'they will make it if there good enough' is rubbish. Are you seriously telling me Valencia and Cleverley for example are better options for the midfield or wide positions than say Dowell or Davies? Equally, how else can they prove they are good enough without the opportunity to play?
Did Holgate really deserve to be dropped for Coleman? Is Galloway really a worse option than Oviedo?

The fact that these young kids arent getting a chance IS NOT a reflection of there ability; its a reflection on the new management regime in place. Equally, a squad overhaul is required and pressure on the new board for signings. It looks bleak for the young lads.

I would never play a young kid for the sake of it as that is ridiculous. But what else is ridiculous is having Kone/Valencia take up squad places when we have young kids with just as much ability as them who arent getting any look in. Thats not me 'living in a dreamworld' and yearning for a team full of youth. Its me hoping that the young guys who dedicate years of there early life to the club and have proven they are good enough at every level they have been at get an opportunity over players who frankly have never been good enough and havent produced within the Premier League on a consistent basis.

On that point, why is it right that Kone/Cleverley/Valencia/Gibson command a squad place when its proven they arent good enough or reliable enough to warrant a squad place?

This isnt a thread which says 'we must play youth only'. The issue is more wide than that. Put yourself in a young lads position.
Everton and Liverpool are after you to sign. Why would you choose Everton over Liverpool right now? I choose them as they are our most direct local rivals for the players we go for in the area.

You're simplifying the argument to a ridiculous extent, while simultaneously talking down to those who don't agree. You can't say that players not getting a chance is not a reflection of their ability. It is, clearly. That might not be the only reason they don't play, but it is very high up the list.

Thing is, every single player - in our squad and everyone elses - was a kid once. They all had to make a debut, and they all had a manager who put faith in them at that point. They will all also have played junior levels with many other lads who never got that opportunity, despite having the same coaches and manager. What explanation is there for that, other than it reflecting their ability? The best ones got picked and the rest never made, twas ever thus.

A lot has been said on here about the fabled class of 92, but why didn't Ferguson ever have such success again? I mean, it had worked once, so surely he wouldn't be scared to try it again? The simple answer is that he never had a crop of players with equivalent talent. They were given opportunities - Cleverley, one of the names on your hitlist, was such an example - and yet just being given the opportunity hasn't made him good enough in your opinion. Why exactly would that not apply to the lads in our academy?

 

[DerbyshireAndHarper]

Got tonked at home by Hertha Berlin last night. Unsy had them locked in the dressing room afterwards last night for a rollocking.

Damn that Koeman, holding back David Henen from getting into the first team!

 

[jinkyali]

You're simplifying the argument to a ridiculous extent, while simultaneously talking down to those who don't agree. You can't say that players not getting a chance is not a reflection of their ability. It is, clearly. That might not be the only reason they don't play, but it is very high up the list.

Thing is, every single player - in our squad and everyone elses - was a kid once. They all had to make a debut, and they all had a manager who put faith in them at that point. They will all also have played junior levels with many other lads who never got that opportunity, despite having the same coaches and manager. What explanation is there for that, other than it reflecting their ability? The best ones got picked and the rest never made, twas ever thus.

A lot has been said on here about the fabled class of 92, but why didn't Ferguson ever have such success again? I mean, it had worked once, so surely he wouldn't be scared to try it again? The simple answer is that he never had a crop of players with equivalent talent. They were given opportunities - Cleverley, one of the names on your hitlist, was such an example - and yet just being given the opportunity hasn't made him good enough in your opinion. Why exactly would that not apply to the lads in our academy?

You kind of make my point. They all need an opportunity.
If you believe its just ability that earns an opportunity then your wrong. Its much more than that and the current circumstances at Everton mean that opportunity is going to be reduced.

 

[ijjysmith]

Got tonked at home by Hertha Berlin last night. Unsy had them locked in the dressing room afterwards last night for a rollocking.

Damn that Koeman, holding back David Henen from getting into the first team!

I had real hopes for Henen based on absolutely nothing.

 

[Lanolin]

You kind of make my point. They all need an opportunity.
If you believe its just ability that earns an opportunity then your wrong. Its much more than that and the current circumstances at Everton mean that opportunity is going to be reduced.

Well i've just said that it's not just about ability haven't I? Obviously attitude, circumstances and personality also have an effect, but the overriding factor will always be ability.

They can't ALL be given an opportunity can they? That's just ridiculous. We have about 20 players in the under 23 squad, you want us to give them all games? They get opportunities in training and in junior games - they have to show that they're good enough to get a chance in the first team or else they won't get one. You seem to be advocating a 'suck it and see' approach, where we just pitch players in so that we - the fans - can decide whether someone's good enough or not. It's a completely half baked idea. We have professional coaches and managers in place to make informed decisions about players, and the best ones will get given opportunities - just as they always have. Yes there'll no doubt be mistakes along the way but that can't be helped.

Football's no different to the real world in this sense. You can't rock up at a company the day after leaving school and say "make me your CEO, you'll never know whether I can do it or not unless you give me a shot". You have to start at the bottom and try to work your way up. If you're good, you'll catch people's eye and get given opportunities. Football clubs, like any business, are not in the habit of deliberately sabotaging their own chances of success by allowing incompetent staff to remain in place and ignoring better quality candidates.

 

[catcherintherye]

To me, it's the price we pay for short termism, which is what most of us on here expected the Koeman appointment to be. It would have been the same if we'd had a Mourinho type as well, but he seems to leave more scorched earth behind him than someone like Koeman, so that's a positive at least. Also, if he wins us a Cup or gets us a Top 4 finish while passing through, he can leave a strong foundation for whomever takes up the reigns after he leaves

We might lose a couple of good lads in the next couple of years for the reasons you've stated, and that's going to be a shame, but not the end of the world

My hope is that we retain as many of the lads you've mentioned as we can over the next couple of seasons and then their development is made a priority by whoever Koeman's successor turns out to be

If, say, after the 2018 World Cup Joachim Loew decides he'd like to go back to club football, and Koeman does well enough with us to get an offer from another club, I really think the best option at that point would be to wish Koeman well, get Loew in and then give Loew an actual mandate from up high to really make something of the youth set up and start developing young players like he did for the German national side

With costs of a potential new stadium etc, having 3-4 kids we can plug into the main squad in the next couple of seasons could be a really valuable asset to have on the books, and I think our new manager in 2-3 years should be brought in with that in mind

Yes I think that is a very fair summation. I wanted Loew for DOF for the reasons you outline. I know when we got Walsh Esk didn't rule out Monchi coming as well, so I wonder if there could be a role for Loew other than manager. Having him helping Unsworth may be the way to go next?

I think that everyone accepts, in all likelihood Koeman will be a short-medium term appointment, which I'm fine with but we do need to be aware of the drawbacks.

 

[Papa Shango]

I mean, he did manage at another PL club like

Surely that goes into the test sample?

Not really no. We may have better youth players than Southampton (though they do seem to bring through seem decent players)

Thing is a manager works with what he has got. His career went through the Netherlands and Barcelona, two places that like to bring through youth when they can so I don't think he would be adverse to bringing players in if he thinks they are good enough.

I think the main thing is that it depends on how long he envisions himself being here and how much backing he is going to get.

In twelve games Holgate and Davies have got game time. Obviously it would be nice if they got more time but it shows he isnt totally against playing them. he is still probably looking over his senior squad (and being quite concerned I reckon..) before he can start looking at the youth side of things.

 

[catcherintherye]

I totally understand what you're saying. It's tough to know just how good they are though.

You mention 'losing' Ledson but who to? Not one of the European elite, but Oxford United. Of course he might bounce back and make us regret it, but equally he might spend his entire career in League One. I don't really see the point in flapping until we see that we've lost out on potentially top class players through not playing them. In my time supporting Everton that has only happened once to my knowledge, with Mustafi. If players like Walsh and Kenny aren't getting a game and other premier league teams start sniffing about then i'll be worried, if they're just being chased by Wigan and Oldham then I won't worry too much.

I've said before that when I've seen Dowell playing open age football, he hasn't impressed me. That doesn't mean he won't turn out to be a Ballon d'or winner one day, but at this moment in time I have seen nothing to suggest he should be in the side. In pre season I thought he looked well below the level of Lennon and Deulofeu, and they're both struggling to get into the side as it is.

Yes that's a very fair counter point. The reality is there wasn't a cue for Ledson but there was never going to be really. In all fairness I think Koeman was quite unlucky with that one and he was probably mismanaged by Martinez, Royle and Unsworth and didn't develop between ages 16-19 as we might have hoped.

It hasn't happened much no, but it is a little more nuanced than that. I think Lunstrom was heavily linked with Southampton recently and I'd say he stands a good chance of making it back to the premiership, while Forshaw looks a good player for Middlesborough currently. I also saw Brighton courting Duffy in a pretty big money move. None of them world beaters but decent squad players and I have to say better than a lot of what we are currently starting.

The difficult as you say though is at the point of releasing all of the above, none of the were good enough to break into our first team.

I didn't see a lot of Dowell at pre-season but I thought he was ok. The consensus from those who watched him more was he wasn't performing as well and from the under 23's this year he hasn't found that same level again. That being said sometimes you need to give a young player 10 games as they will come along a lot in that time. Even Stones was quite shaky when he first started but improved very quickly. That's always a good barometer for me. Not how good they are when they start, but how much do they improve. Are we going to get much improvement from Cleverley, Lennon, Mirallas or even Deulofeu?

The frustrating thing is, our best performance of the last 6 months came in a game where Davies, Kenny and Dowell played and all had good games for us.

 

[mightymoyes]

Got tonked at home by Hertha Berlin last night. Unsy had them locked in the dressing room afterwards last night for a rollocking.

Damn that Koeman, holding back David Henen from getting into the first team!

it was essentially our 3rd team, no one is calling for any of those involved to be given a chance with the first team yet. in the future someone like feeney might deserve one.

 

[jinkyali]

Yes that's a very fair counter point. The reality is there wasn't a cue for Ledson but there was never going to be really. In all fairness I think Koeman was quite unlucky with that one and he was probably mismanaged by Martinez, Royle and Unsworth and didn't develop between ages 16-19 as we might have hoped.

It hasn't happened much no, but it is a little more nuanced than that. I think Lunstrom was heavily linked with Southampton recently and I'd say he stands a good chance of making it back to the premiership, while Forshaw looks a good player for Middlesborough currently. I also saw Brighton courting Duffy in a pretty big money move. None of them world beaters but decent squad players and I have to say better than a lot of what we are currently starting.

The difficult as you say though is at the point of releasing all of the above, none of the were good enough to break into our first team.

I didn't see a lot of Dowell at pre-season but I thought he was ok. The consensus from those who watched him more was he wasn't performing as well and from the under 23's this year he hasn't found that same level again. That being said sometimes you need to give a young player 10 games as they will come along a lot in that time. Even Stones was quite shaky when he first started but improved very quickly. That's always a good barometer for me. Not how good they are when they start, but how much do they improve. Are we going to get much improvement from Cleverley, Lennon, Mirallas or even Deulofeu?

The frustrating thing is, our best performance of the last 6 months came in a game where Davies, Kenny and Dowell played and all had good games for us.

Not to mention the performances put in by Kenny and Davies against Southampton.

 

[DerbyshireAndHarper]

it was essentially our 3rd team, no one is calling for any of those involved to be given a chance with the first team yet. in the future someone like feeney might deserve one.

I know mate, it was a bit of a tongue in cheek post. We're top of the reserves league and do have some good players.

I don't think it's a massive worry at the moment, but I would like to see him give a chance to Davies and maybe one other.

 

[Catfish Blues]

In terms of the under 23's, I would say that Holgate, Galloway, Davies, Walsh, Dowell, Calvert Lewin all have an outstanding chance. But again; you miss the point somewhat. These boys NEED the opportuntiy to showcase the talent. This opportunity is lessening and there is a real risk that they will go by the way side.

Pretty much agree with that ( not totally sure about Dowell, but that's a minor difference ), but the step up from U23 to first team is massive, and has been for some time. Off-hand I can't remember a time recently were four or five youngsters got such a chance, so I don't believe much has changed

The old adage that 'they will make it if there good enough' is rubbish. Are you seriously telling me Valencia and Cleverley for example are better options for the midfield or wide positions than say Dowell or Davies? Equally, how else can they prove they are good enough without the opportunity to play?

Having seen them both play regularly I'd say there's very little between Cleverley and Davies, and I wouldn't mind seeing Davies play more, but I don't think he's in competition with Cleverley.

We've seen very little of Valencia, and I think people have written off an international player a bit early, I don't think Dowell's a better option though.

Did Holgate really deserve to be dropped for Coleman?

Dropped is an emotive phrase, he was standing in for an injured Coleman. When fit, I'd play Coleman before Holgate.

Is Galloway really a worse option than Oviedo?

Yes he is. Galloway's talented but hasn't pushed on as much as I'd have expected. He only played under Martinez because Baines was crocked and Oviedo was injured / not fully fit.

The fact that these young kids arent getting a chance IS NOT a reflection of there ability; its a reflection on the new management regime in place.

Partly true, Koeman is probably less likely to play the kids but the idea that any recent management team has regularly played three or four kids in the first team is just wrong. The bar's been lifted a bit in breaking through into the first team but it's a results driven business

But what else is ridiculous is having Kone/Valencia take up squad places when we have young kids with just as much ability as them who arent getting any look in.

Well, actually, the only forward we've got who looks likely to step up is Calvert-Lewin, and he's only been here five minutes.

... Its me hoping that the young guys who dedicate years of there early life to the club and have proven they are good enough at every level they have been at get an opportunity over players who frankly have never been good enough and havent produced within the Premier League on a consistent basis.

Some of the kids have shone at U23 level, but a lot of them are decent, but nothing special. I presume you've watched them ( as have I ) , so we've plainly come away from matches with a different viewpoint, which is fine, if we all thought the same it'd be dull.

On that pont, why is it right that Kone/Cleverley/Valencia/Gibson command a squad place when its proven they arent good enough or reliable enough to warrant a squad place?

Kone and Gibson are on the fringes of the squad, Cleverley, despite what the haters, is there on merit. As previously mentioned, the jury's out on Valencia.

Everton and Liverpool are after you to sign. Why would you choose Everton over Liverpool right now? I choose them as they are our most direct local rivals for the players we go for in the area.

The sad fact is that a lot of the academy players that have come through at Liverpool in the last few years are better players than what we've produced.