Midfielders in the Youth Set-Up

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I used to love watching john paul kissock ! used to remind me of ortega and not just his hair ! alas never made it !
Yes John Paul was another who never got a real chance off dithering Dave, a good little player who made a couple of mistakes, off the pitch and Moyes held it against him, a real Puritan was Mr.Moyes, couldn't stand the miserable, put your own words in.
 
Exactly the type of midfielder we need though. Potentially an upgraded version of Gibson. No one else has that passing range from deep. Ledson might be an alright player but what does he bring that McCarthy Besic Cleverley are not already offering? If Dowell Evans and Walsh kick in to join Barkley we could have great strength in depth in the next few years but like Baxter, Lundstram, even Rodwell, you can never tell when they are just going to plateau. Another manager may have even lost patience with Barkley.

Yes I think that's a fair summary. Walsh is the type of player that English teams full stop don't produce much and when they do they tend to misuse them. If you look at Scholes for England he was shunted out to play left wing to allow for bigger/more physical lads like Lampard and Gerrard to play. The only real exception to this was Alex Fergusan who had a better understanding of football than the entire FA put together at times.

Even if you listen to Gary Neville's debate with Carragher on who was better out of Lampard and Scholes you could tell that one was schooled by perhaps the finest mind to ever to involved in British football, the other is echoing clichés out of the England handbook. (I happen to really like Carragher as a pundit by the way so I'm not just trying to knock him).

Carragher was quoting Gerrard's goal record especially in big games. Or the fact he'd make a crunching tackle. Neville said there are many ways to win a game, not just by scoring a goal, and that Scholes allowed you to control them tempo of a game. He said at United when they would finish sessions with a 5 a side match the side Scholes was in would always win as they would keep the ball.

I remember big Joe Royle also saying about Alan Ball that he could "run a game" which seemed to echo a lot of what Neville said. Great teams need a player of that ability and only truly great thinkers can understand the need to protect them.

Walsh has got a long way to go to get to that level. However at under 18's I have seen him control the flow of a game in that manner. When we beat Liverpool last season 5-0 he basically dictated the whole game at his pace. The Everton players always looked to pass him the ball and conducted play.

Gibson is of a very similar school, but I think Scholes (and Walsh) have a bit better special awareness than Gibson. Gibson has a fantastic long passing range, but Scholes was also able to find space for himself, play short passes as well as long passes when necessary. Being smaller I think helps with that special awareness.

As for Ledson he will be far more in the mould of a McCarthy type player. He is a bit taller than McCarthy and probably a bit better at passing. He has the potential too to be better than alright, but I get the point, he is a very standard English midfield player.
 
Donohue has always impressed but, just like Delial Brewster, seems to get injured a lot.

Sometimes it is because they are still growing and it sorts itself out. Sometimes it doesn't and their bodies are too fragile to make it as a pro.

It is why I think all English clubs should concentrate on offering proper full time education to players until 18 (or even 21) as only a tiny fraction will make it as a footballer.
 
Yes I think that's a fair summary. Walsh is the type of player that English teams full stop don't produce much and when they do they tend to misuse them. If you look at Scholes for England he was shunted out to play left wing to allow for bigger/more physical lads like Lampard and Gerrard to play. The only real exception to this was Alex Fergusan who had a better understanding of football than the entire FA put together at times.

Even if you listen to Gary Neville's debate with Carragher on who was better out of Lampard and Scholes you could tell that one was schooled by perhaps the finest mind to ever to involved in British football, the other is echoing clichés out of the England handbook. (I happen to really like Carragher as a pundit by the way so I'm not just trying to knock him).

Carragher was quoting Gerrard's goal record especially in big games. Or the fact he'd make a crunching tackle. Neville said there are many ways to win a game, not just by scoring a goal, and that Scholes allowed you to control them tempo of a game. He said at United when they would finish sessions with a 5 a side match the side Scholes was in would always win as they would keep the ball.

I remember big Joe Royle also saying about Alan Ball that he could "run a game" which seemed to echo a lot of what Neville said. Great teams need a player of that ability and only truly great thinkers can understand the need to protect them.

Walsh has got a long way to go to get to that level. However at under 18's I have seen him control the flow of a game in that manner. When we beat Liverpool last season 5-0 he basically dictated the whole game at his pace. The Everton players always looked to pass him the ball and conducted play.

Gibson is of a very similar school, but I think Scholes (and Walsh) have a bit better special awareness than Gibson. Gibson has a fantastic long passing range, but Scholes was also able to find space for himself, play short passes as well as long passes when necessary. Being smaller I think helps with that special awareness.

As for Ledson he will be far more in the mould of a McCarthy type player. He is a bit taller than McCarthy and probably a bit better at passing. He has the potential too to be better than alright, but I get the point, he is a very standard English midfield player.

id say ledson is far better than mccarthy when it comes to playing near the oppositions box, obviously at u21/youth level though.
 
Yes I think that's a fair summary. Walsh is the type of player that English teams full stop don't produce much and when they do they tend to misuse them. If you look at Scholes for England he was shunted out to play left wing to allow for bigger/more physical lads like Lampard and Gerrard to play. The only real exception to this was Alex Fergusan who had a better understanding of football than the entire FA put together at times.

Even if you listen to Gary Neville's debate with Carragher on who was better out of Lampard and Scholes you could tell that one was schooled by perhaps the finest mind to ever to involved in British football, the other is echoing clichés out of the England handbook. (I happen to really like Carragher as a pundit by the way so I'm not just trying to knock him).

Carragher was quoting Gerrard's goal record especially in big games. Or the fact he'd make a crunching tackle. Neville said there are many ways to win a game, not just by scoring a goal, and that Scholes allowed you to control them tempo of a game. He said at United when they would finish sessions with a 5 a side match the side Scholes was in would always win as they would keep the ball.

I remember big Joe Royle also saying about Alan Ball that he could "run a game" which seemed to echo a lot of what Neville said. Great teams need a player of that ability and only truly great thinkers can understand the need to protect them.

Walsh has got a long way to go to get to that level. However at under 18's I have seen him control the flow of a game in that manner. When we beat Liverpool last season 5-0 he basically dictated the whole game at his pace. The Everton players always looked to pass him the ball and conducted play.

Gibson is of a very similar school, but I think Scholes (and Walsh) have a bit better special awareness than Gibson. Gibson has a fantastic long passing range, but Scholes was also able to find space for himself, play short passes as well as long passes when necessary. Being smaller I think helps with that special awareness.

As for Ledson he will be far more in the mould of a McCarthy type player. He is a bit taller than McCarthy and probably a bit better at passing. He has the potential too to be better than alright, but I get the point, he is a very standard English midfield player.

Always forget just how short Scholes was.
 

Donohue has always impressed but, just like Delial Brewster, seems to get injured a lot.

Sometimes it is because they are still growing and it sorts itself out. Sometimes it doesn't and their bodies are too fragile to make it as a pro.

It is why I think all English clubs should concentrate on offering proper full time education to players until 18 (or even 21) as only a tiny fraction will make it as a footballer.


All u18s have to do a minimum of 10hrs study per week - premier league rules.

A friend of a friend knows the Donohue family. He left school with 11GCSE's - 3 As & 8 A stars.

He is very bright and very serious about his football & unfortunately had a couple of injuries last season putting him out for up to 7 months, but now appears to be fully fit.
 
Oops*climbs down off soapbox

but stand by my original premise, 1 in 30,40,50? make it

Harvey, Buckley, Richardson ( who had to go away to really make it ) Ebrell, Osman, Barkley
60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's, 10's.

Do you Include Rooney as a midfielder*waggles hand...

anybody I've missed?

Rodwell
 
Oops*climbs down off soapbox

but stand by my original premise, 1 in 30,40,50? make it

Harvey, Buckley, Richardson ( who had to go away to really make it ) Ebrell, Osman, Barkley
60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's, 10's.

Do you Include Rooney as a midfielder*waggles hand...

anybody I've missed?

How are you defining "make it" though. I remember Ray Hall discussing this. He pointed out if a lad makes a first team appearance he has in his eyes "made it". Often they will make a career elsewhere but they will never have to work again on retirement.

If we take the last say the last 10-15 years. We have had Osman, Rodwell, Barkley all play for the first team. Lads like McManaman and O'Kane are now playing in the premiership. Baxter, Wallace, Forshaw have all played at a decent standard too (Forshaw signed for 5 million I think).

That is not a meagre return by any stretch of the imagination for 1 area of the pitch. If you can add 1 player every season to your squad from your youth team of say 12 lads that get promoted that's a very good return.

However when you look at England youth internationals the success ratio is far higher. It obviously varies club to club, but around 1/3 to 1 in 4 tend to get first team opportunities. At clubs like ourselves it can be closer to 1 in 2.
 
From what I have seen of Dowell is he seems more like a Steve McManaman type. Can play anywhere across that attacking 3 (in a 4-2-3-1), is a bit gangly, likes to run with the ball, and has that laid back style about him.
Only other real player we have similar to that id say is Pienaar, so id be very keen to see Dowell develop further with us
 

From what I have seen of Dowell is he seems more like a Steve McManaman type. Can play anywhere across that attacking 3 (in a 4-2-3-1), is a bit gangly, likes to run with the ball, and has that laid back style about him.
Only other real player we have similar to that id say is Pienaar, so id be very keen to see Dowell develop further with us

Dowell could go on to be a really useful player for us. I think he is a bit Ozil like in the way he moves with the ball. He has a great left foot and glides past players.
He is also a brilliant "one touch" player. He picks spaces out very cleverly too. Essentially he is a natural number 10, not very quick but a very clever player.
 
Dowell could go on to be a really useful player for us. I think he is a bit Ozil like in the way he moves with the ball. He has a great left foot and glides past players.
He is also a brilliant "one touch" player. He picks spaces out very cleverly too. Essentially he is a natural number 10, not very quick but a very clever player.

Certainly seemed during pre season that he seemed further ahead than anyone else in the youth team. The signings of Cleverley Lennon Deulofeu and the return of Mcgeady, Kone and Pienaar (if this ever happens) have probably blocked any chance of an appearance in the first team squad in the prem but for a team crying out for a number 10 it would be great if in a few years he had progressed to compete for that position. A future midfield three of Walsh dictating from deep, Barkley box to box and Dowell at 10 would be an academy coaches dream. Would have a nice balance to it in my opinion.
 
When you look at the midfield though and without too much shoehorning these are the players we have

LW -- Mirallas/Cleverley
DM -- McCarthy/Besic
CM -- Barkley
AM -- ?
RW -- Deulofeu/Lennon

Osman/Pienaar/Barry/McGeady to add to the list of course but theres a good chance for young players to come through...


Certainly seemed during pre season that he seemed further ahead than anyone else in the youth team. The signings of Cleverley Lennon Deulofeu and the return of Mcgeady, Kone and Pienaar (if this ever happens) have probably blocked any chance of an appearance in the first team squad in the prem but for a team crying out for a number 10 it would be great if in a few years he had progressed to compete for that position. A future midfield three of Walsh dictating from deep, Barkley box to box and Dowell at 10 would be an academy coaches dream. Would have a nice balance to it in my opinion.
 
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