Messi "best player of all time"

[dholliday]

But you are with Maradona because he didn't achieve much in club football. In club football someone like Platini had a much better record in the same league in the same era.

ahaha c'mon now...his Napoli era if one of the most famous examples of one player carrying a club team to grand success.

Hmmm dunno, Nilton Santos was doing it 40 years before Carlos was even playing.

Was never a Roberto Carlos fan, I think mainly because everyone said he was boss at free kicks when he wasn't. Obviously he scored a few corkers but more often than not they were awful!

I agree Carlos's free-kick rep was overrated. He has that one candidate for best free-kick goal ever, and a couple of other stormers, but otherwise he smashed it into the wall or it ballooned upwards. I don't have his stats, but I bet he's stilll about on-par with Beckham & C.Ronaldo (who also get overrated as everyone forgets how many they fluffed). Neither can hold a candle to Juninho.

My Carlos worship is more directed at how he played football, and still his team didn't concede many goals. I don't know much about Nilton Santos, I believe you tho' if you say he was a similar player.

 

[Papa Shango]

That might make a more interesting discussion actually than a blanko top 10. What is your all-time best 11? More to think about too: who could play well together with who, is there enough height in central defence, is the midfield balanced etc

I see you've also limited it to players you've experienced in your lifetime. It's a strong 11, sure, but as you've made them into a team there's not a lot of balance there. You'd have to drop Van Basten and replace with a Makalele or Gattuso.

Mine wouldn't feature Messi or Ronaldo actually. Not because I think they are rubbish or anything but purely due to the fact that I am not a fan of Spanish football and never really have been.

I am currently working on a book (well more a magazine to be honest) about the greatest players you have never heard of (Not you personally...) judging by this thread there may be some interest in it at least which is nice to know!

 

[dholliday]

I am currently working on a book (well more a magazine to be honest) about the greatest players you have never heard of

That sounds mega! Love stuff like that. You're talking like foreign equivalents of Le Tissier? I read a Xavi interview once where he called Le Tiss his favourite player. I was surprised as I thought no-one outside UK would've heard of him.

 

[Papa Shango]

ahaha c'mon now...his Napoli era if one of the most famous examples of one player carrying a club team to grand success.

I have always found this to be slightly untrue.

I mean don't get me wrong he was the best in the world at the time and took them to the next level but the likes of Careca, Alemao, Carnevale, Ferrara, Fusi and Di Napoli were no mugs either.

 

[Steve0]

That's the same argument I put forward earlier in the thread about why it's so much easier for players like Messi and Ronaldo in modern football, because if a player mistimes a tackle he'll be booked or sent off it'd mean - heads must've been all over the place - whereas in Maradona's day a defender could almost 'mistime' as many tackles as he wanted even causing harm to the player. In Pele's day it was even worse, the 66 World Cup an obvious example.

There were 6 red cards in 52 games in 86 and 4 in 64 in 2018.

And SIXTEEN red cards in 1990. It's something of a myth that defenders could do what they wanted back in the day.

 

[dholliday]

I have always found this to be slightly untrue.

I mean don't get me wrong he was the best in the world at the time and took them to the next level but the likes of Careca, Alemao, Carnevale, Ferrara, Fusi and Di Napoli were no mugs either.

Fair comment, also Argie 1986 had other very good players. Still Diego was an absolute dream of a footballer...like something out of a comic.

What's your all-time top 10, mate?

 

[dholliday]

There were 6 red cards in 52 games in 86 and 4 in 64 in 2018.

And SIXTEEN red cards in 1990. It's something of a myth that defenders could do what they wanted back in the day.

It's easy to forget in the mists of time, but youtube is a godsend: there's loads of footage of 70's/80's-era football. Check out what doesn't get blown or carded. Different era back then.

 

[Papa Shango]

That sounds mega! Love stuff like that. You're talking like foreign equivalents of Le Tissier? I read a Xavi interview once where he called Le Tiss his favourite player. I was surprised as I thought no-one outside UK would've heard of him.

Yeah pretty much, basically players who I think never get a mention when it comes to past greats because of who they played for or where they played, so a bunch of Eastern Europeans, South Americans who didn't play for Brazil or Argentina or fairly well known players who get overlooked because they played alongside brilliant players too. Planning on doing it as an interactive online magazine with links to videos etc, only problem is footage is hard to come by and clear images of some players are an absolute nightmare to find. I'll get there though eventually.

 

[dholliday]

Yeah pretty much, basically players who I think never get a mention when it comes to past greats because of who they played for or where they played, so a bunch of Eastern Europeans, South Americans who didn't play for Brazil or Argentina or fairly well known players who get overlooked because they played alongside brilliant players too. Planning on doing it as an interactive online magazine with links to videos etc, only problem is footage is hard to come by and clear images of some players are an absolute nightmare to find. I'll get there though eventually.

Yeah, this is also interesting. Deschamps is getting plaudits now as manager, but he's probably got a shout as one of the all-time great players too even if his role was overshadowed by more glamorous players.

Hagi & Stoichkov are huge names in football, tho' often don't get mentioned in English-speaking circles. They also had a couple of underrated team-mates who helped them blossom.

Your project sounds genuinely brilliant. Let us know once it's out there. I enjoy football writers like Scott Murray & Rob Smyth who often bring up players or teams most of us aren't familiar with, and they're entertaining writers too. Jonathan Wilson is famous for his obscurist love of Eastern European football but his prose is very dry.

 

[Papa Shango]

Fair comment, also Argie 1986 had other very good players. Still Diego was an absolute dream of a footballer...like something out of a comic.

What's your all-time top 10, mate?

Hard to list them to be honest, as I said as I was a defender I always looked up to defenders so my opinions are slightly skewed.

I mean I know Messi, Ronaldo, Pele etc are some of the best of all time but I didn't "enjoy" them or pay them enough attention.

Matthias Sammer is my all time favourite player, an absolute Rolls Royce of a footballer. I love sweepers, it annoys me that the role has pretty much disappeared from the game seemingly to be replaced by defenders who want to bomb forward but don't want to get themselves dirty by tackling.

Koeman is another one actually. His time here has tainted him somewhat but what an absolutely fantastic footballer.

Was a big fan of Socrates too. So elegant and seemed to have all the time in the world.

 

[AmericasToffee]

An above average, but by no means great, 2018 World Cup showing aside, it seems pretty obvious to me that Messi is one of the all time greatest players in the world. He's not a one trick pony as proven by the goal AND assist numbers he racks up. He's a playmaker in every sense of the word. Judging him on international performances (forgot the 2014 World Cup already, have we? - "Messi created more chances than anybody at the 2014 World Cup and only Andrea Pirlo played as many through-balls. He gave us more completed dribbles than any other player with his tally of 46 taking him well clear of Robben’s 29."). His surrounding cast and staff at Argentina...well, I have no idea what they hell they have been thinking. Shoe-horning players players into positions, leaving their other playmakers on the bench (Dybala anyone?). Messi gets terrible service when he's in an Argentina shirt and the ARG game plan always seems to be "give it to him and hope he does the incredible again". He is not the selfish minded player in the mold of a Ronaldo or Maradona (which isn't a bad quality for a forward in most cases) so his desire to create goals is stronger than his desire to create goals for himself.

That boy good.

 

[dholliday]

Hard to list them to be honest, as I said as I was a defender I always looked up to defenders so my opinions are slightly skewed.

I mean I know Messi, Ronaldo, Pele etc are some of the best of all time but I didn't "enjoy" them or pay them enough attention.

Matthias Sammer is my all time favourite player, an absolute Rolls Royce of a footballer. I love sweepers, it annoys me that the role has pretty much disappeared from the game seemingly to be replaced by defenders who want to bomb forward but don't want to get themselves dirty by tackling.

Koeman is another one actually. His time here has tainted him somewhat but what an absolutely fantastic footballer.

Was a big fan of Socrates too. So elegant and seemed to have all the time in the world.

Excellent choices. Any top 10 is subjective so there's no rules.

Was also a fan of Sammer. His career got cut a bit short due to injury. I didn't like Koeman as being German he was our rival (and showed it!), but ok...world-class player. Was honestly a bit miffed when he became Everton manager.

 

[Papa Shango]

An above average, but by no means great, 2018 World Cup showing aside, it seems pretty obvious to me that Messi is one of the all time greatest players in the world. He's not a one trick pony as proven by the goal AND assist numbers he racks up. He's a playmaker in every sense of the word. Judging him on international performances (forgot the 2014 World Cup already, have we? - "Messi created more chances than anybody at the 2014 World Cup and only Andrea Pirlo played as many through-balls. He gave us more completed dribbles than any other player with his tally of 46 taking him well clear of Robben’s 29."). His surrounding cast and staff at Argentina...well, I have no idea what they hell they have been thinking. Shoe-horning players players into positions, leaving their other playmakers on the bench (Dybala anyone?). Messi gets terrible service when he's in an Argentina shirt and the ARG game plan always seems to be "give it to him and hope he does the incredible again". He is not the selfish minded player in the mold of a Ronaldo or Maradona (which isn't a bad quality for a forward in most cases) so his desire to create goals is stronger than his desire to create goals for himself.

That boy good.

I think Messi's problem when judging him fully is not of his own making. He is a one club player, playing for a brilliant side with world class players around him every season he has been at Barcelona. That is obviously not his fault and its not like he is going to turn out for Wigan or someone to prove how great he is, and it comes with it's own pressures but for me he will always have the slight asterix next to his name purely because he has never played anywhere else.

 

[AmericasToffee]

I think Messi's problem when judging him fully is not of his own making. He is a one club player, playing for a brilliant side with world class players around him every season he has been at Barcelona. That is obviously not his fault and its not like he is going to turn out for Wigan or someone to prove how great he is, and it comes with it's own pressures but for me he will always have the slight asterix next to his name purely because he has never played anywhere else.

A fair idea.

 

[Papa Shango]

Excellent choices. Any top 10 is subjective so there's no rules.

Was also a fan of Sammer. His career got cut a bit short due to injury. I didn't like Koeman as being German he was our rival (and showed it!), but ok...world-class player. Was honestly a bit miffed when he became Everton manager.

Oh yeah he was a very easily hateable player. So good though, his goal scoring record for a defender is ridiculous too.

Didn't know you were German, you will probably know a fair few in my underrated list then! Who is your German team? Do you have one?