martinez out banner at watford

[DrEFC]

This thread..
edit: actually more enjoyable.

 

[Ashtonian]

Because that's football. And that's not supposed to be flippant. You can play well and lose and look great one week and lost the next. Can't see the point in picking individual games out to make an overall point. I'd have totally agreed with people saying we needed to tighten up a few months ago. To my mind we have. But you'll be able to find individual things that prove otherwise.
West Ham we were down to ten men for a huge stretch of the game. You usually lose. How we lost may indicate something bigger to some people. For me it was just gutting and we deserved better

But at west ham we were winning with 10 men, and conceded 2 goals from crosses, which west ham players said they knew we were, at that point we were playing 3 at the back and attacking so it left the crossing areas exposed. And it happened many times this season , not a one off game. For the whole season we have had weaknesses from set pieces and crosses, even the manager has said himself he doesn't believe they are a weakness nor does he believe his team needs to work on set pieces.

So to play well and lose to conceding those types of goals is far more than just football. Hell losing the final to those sorts of goals is just down to the manager.

 

[bcblue1878]

@chazzle_dazzle

Ignoring short term stop gaps i think we have this mid-long term group at the moment:

GK -- ??? / Robles
LB -- ??? / Oviedo
LCB -- Mori / Galloway
RCB -- Stones
RB -- ??? / Coleman
DM -- ??? / McCarthy
CM -- ??? / Besic
LW -- ??? / Cleverley
ACM -- Barkley / Tarashaj
RW -- Deulofeu / Lennon
ST -- Lukaku /Niasse

That with the right additions could look very interesting.

You really think Stones and Lukaku are here for the mid-long term? The only way that's happening is if Martinez is gone, and a "proper" manager comes in and along with Moshiri can persuade them to give it a go for another year!

 

[bluestevon]

To clarify, what i mean is that its not his "tactical plan" or system. Its simply necessity of having 2 full backs who can attack but are weak defensively.

See oviedo in for Baines which was a massive difference and also the move for Byram.

Zat i last week posted up the stats for all 3 players at left back for us this season, you do know we have conceded less goals per game swith Baines starting than with either Oviedo or Galloway (conceded considerably more with hnim starting btw)

Stats from memory are roughly 1.15 pg with Bisnes starting - 12 games played, 1.2 with Oviedo playing, 1.6 with galloway playing, on top he has made more interceptions and had more defensive actions than galloway by a sizeable margin, roughly the same as Oviedo, Galloway is the onyl player of the 3 who has commited a 'defensive error' leading to a goal of the 3.

Creatively Baines is ahead of all 3 as you would expect.

So how exactly are we stronger defensively when the actual statistics show that when Baines is in the side we actually concede less goals than the other 2 players you have not criticised at all and ahave stated are better defensively than him?

You have also said a lot about this not being fully Martinez's squad - using that example how manyh of the mangers currently above us in the league are doing better with squads you could say the exact same thing about?

Only Wenger by a lot and Huges by a few days have been at their respective clubs longer than Martinez has now btw, the next closest has been at his club for a years less time?

Klopp has a compeltely inherited squad and so far has outperformed Martinez who has had three seasons to mold this squad
Pochettini has had a year less time and brought in less players than Martinez to have his squad fighting for the title and look a very very well drilled and coached/organized team
Koeman at Saints has had to basically replace itnergral players each season and has Southampton flying high above us for both his years in charge

their just three examples, why is it that Martinez stands alone amongst all these other managers who can actually work with what they have and get the best out of it?

 

[Ashtonian]

Well not necessarily. There's a good chance Stones, Lukaku and Barkely will help him to change 3 of those 5.

But a poor league finish doesn't attract the quality of player to even improve on what we have. Cause and effect as they say, sell a 30 goals striker, we aren't going to replace him with someone anywhere near as good, which then negatively affects our performances and so on and so forth.

Its not HIS team yet....he needs HIS team to play the system....hes built the squad up as much as he can with the funds....few cheap mistakes along the way but done a good job on the positions hes been able to fill when spending money.

Not his team? He has signed enough players to fill the match day squad alone!

His team went down the first time, if the team is already playing like his old team and still needs adjusting then we may as well just pack up and get relegated now

 

[bcblue1878]

Watched them all...Arsenal was shocking but i read an artlcle analyzing the tactics and it highlighted why we setup and played that way to draw them in before countering...sadly defence and arsenal are arsenal = loss.

Same kind of feel yesterday BUT not a major disaster to lose against those two. West Ham i felt martinez was amazing and let down by 2 mori errors and lukaku miss + mirallas.

Theres a lot of "near misses" this season where mostly howard and coleman habe cost us points or just not getting enough goals (oddly enough)....alot of bad luck as well.

Things could have been much different.

Trust me Zatara, the crowd walking down the stairs from the Upper Gwladys Street after the WH game really didn't think Martinez was amazing, particularly the dreadful substitution! Since then we have also had the two toothless performances against Arsenal and Man U, somethings wrong and it needs sorting!

 

[dano195]

I want the man gone, however the timing of it isn't the best with the semi final coming up. I've said for months now 'enough is enough'. I suppose we need to make ourselves heard. However if the players really want him in charge it may give them a kick up the ass.

 

[Zatara]

Howard was in a massive decline for 3 seasons if not more mate, while he was at fault for a lot - he wasn't the one who picked himself for the team. There is only one person who is at fault for that and not seeing what was going on. Don't want to derail it into the other martinez thread, however there is plenty of reasons for a banner, protest or some sort of waking up of the board and broader media to whats going on. Without idiots saying its bloody kopite behaviour.

My issue is go out this summer spend 100 million - then we are massively underperforming again and he gets the sack. A new manager has to come in mid season and try and figure out the pieces with whats left, and another summer of not fixing the real issues in the squad. Martinez isn't a terrible recruiter, he just doesn't have the full skill set to be what he wants, the number one with full control of the club.

Its a massively risky game to play.

We could go and buy the next big thing, and they could have a great season and we could be sitting 14th. again, like we are with Lukaku.

I trust Martinez to spend money wisely...so if any dramas next season we have improved the squad.

On the defensive side we currently have this:


Gk - Robles
LB -- Baines / Oviedo / Garbutt
LCB -- Mori / Galloway
RCB -- Stones / Jagielka / Browning / Pennington
RB -- Coleman
DM -- Barry
DM -- McCarthy

if it was me i would send all the kids on loan next season.

Id have Stones playing every game at RCB and bringing the ball out of defence and / passing it to the wingers or centrally. He would need to have players able to cover for him hence Koulibaly the 6'3 monster coming in at right back but able to move across (he can also bring the ball out too when needed).

Id be quite happy with Manolas (linked last week) as hes very solid defensively and a real leader. He would be ideal alongside Stones and allow us to keep with Baines/Oviedo for another season as he would "protect them".

Add in a keeper:

GK-- Rico (Ter Stegen/Leno) / Robles
LB -- Baines / Oviedo
LCB -- Manolas / Mori
RCB -- Stones / Jagielka
RB -- Koulibaly / Coleman

We then have Barry and McCarthy basically doing one mans job. We would need to sign a top DM/Pivot/ Busquets-lite.

Then 'on paper' at least i would be very confident defensively for next season. What have we really done here, signed a necessary keeper + 2 defenders and a DM.

Not wholesale changes but additions of pure quality.

This is what i HOPE martinez does in the summer.

If not then i would be concerned really and look for Tuchel to come in or i wouldnt discount Mourinho but it would be high risk for us and his mandate would need to be to create a legacy not just a 3 year plan.

 

[bluestevon]

I want the man gone, however the timing of it isn't the best with the semi final coming up. I've said for months now 'enough is enough'. I suppose we need to make ourselves heard. However if the players really want him in charge it may give them a kick up the ass.

Sort his replacement out now, and if their not available till the summer - sack him give it over to Royle until the new bloke can join, least we'd see a bit of commitment till the end of the season that way

 

[Zatara]

Trust me Zatara, the crowd walking down the stairs from the Upper Gwladys Street after the WH game really didn't think Martinez was amazing, particularly the dreadful substitution! Since then we have also had the two toothless performances against Arsenal and Man U, somethings wrong and it needs sorting!

I blame the fans just kidding!

Thouggt he was amazing myself until the missed penalty when Mori should have made two straightforward headers. Again though,probably knackered agsinst eleven men and his season to adapt.

 

[Abertonian]

I trust Martinez to spend money wisely...so if any dramas next season we have improved the squad.

On the defensive side we currently have this:


Gk - Robles
LB -- Baines / Oviedo / Garbutt
LCB -- Mori / Galloway
RCB -- Stones / Jagielka / Browning / Pennington
RB -- Coleman
DM -- Barry
DM -- McCarthy

if it was me i would send all the kids on loan next season.

Id have Stones playing every game at RCB and bringing the ball out of defence and / passing it to the wingers or centrally. He would need to have players able to cover for him hence Koulibaly the 6'3 monster coming in at right back but able to move across (he can also bring the ball out too when needed).

Id be quite happy with Manolas (linked last week) as hes very solid defensively and a real leader. He would be ideal alongside Stones and allow us to keep with Baines/Oviedo for another season as he would "protect them".

Add in a keeper:

GK-- Rico (Ter Stegen/Leno) / Robles
LB -- Baines / Oviedo
LCB -- Manolas / Mori
RCB -- Stones / Jagielka
RB -- Koulibaly / Coleman

We then have Barry and McCarthy basically doing one mans job. We would need to sign a top DM/Pivot/ Busquets-lite.

Then 'on paper' at least i would be very confident defensively for next season. What have we really done here, signed a necessary keeper + 2 defenders and a DM.

Not wholesale changes but additions of pure quality.

This is what i HOPE martinez does in the summer.

If not then i would be concerned really and look for Tuchel to come in or i wouldnt discount Mourinho but it would be high risk for us and his mandate would need to be to create a legacy not just a 3 year plan.

That's a pretty plausible plan but out of interest what would you do if stones and rom left?

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

sack him give it over to Royle until the new bloke can join, least we'd see a bit of commitment till the end of the season that way

Agreed. We'd at least see the same 'new manager syndrome' as what we seen when martinez arrived.

 

[Zatara]

Sort his replacement out now, and if their not available till the summer - sack him give it over to Royle until the new bloke can join, least we'd see a bit of commitment till the end of the season that way

Why the Royle shouts from a few of you?

Hes not been our manager for 20 years...the game has moved on and how would he command fhe respect of the foreign lads who probably know of him but dont know him as a top manager?

 

[jal123]

Have I really just seen a post on here saying we should look at Tuchel, and not discount Mourinho. These aren't managers that take over clubs in our position ffs.

 

[Khalekan]

Mate I'm not arguing your an evertonian we all are! But by doing something as fans or a fan base for what we see as a benefit to this club we shoudnt be branded a kopite or kopite behaviour.

Far far far to much of our fan base is fractured and not in unity.

Sorry.....the bloke in the OP asked if we agreed with a banner and did we think it was "Kopite behaviour".

I happen to think it is both ineffective in the first instance and falls into the latter category and answered him as such.

Regarding the fan base being fractured, a couple of fellows whom post on here aside, I don't think there is a fracture anymore...the overwhelming majority just feel he has run his race and we need change.

That change is coming, Matty.

My own view is it needs to come before Anfield or we are in for the most disappointing four or five days in recent Everton history

But I still don't agree with banners at games calling for Bobby to be sacked