Transfer Rumour Joshua Zirkzee

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It is possible I mean a few fans still believed he could come good but at the time his goal return was very poor and a lot wanted him gone. All I am saying is the lack of alternative proved to be Dominics friend and he took his chance with both hands but it was a gamble that paid off whatever way you look at it.

I'd love to know how you can envisage a striker suddenly clicking, i mean we were all hoping for it and it came but it wasn't a smooth ride and under normal circumstances he very well may have been benched never to be seen again.

Like I say it's a good news story and one I have been delighted watching come to fruition but it was a bumpy road and I will not be persuaded otherwise that he was lucky to be stuck with.
I never thought DCL would make the grade for us
Had the pace and the physicality but never seemed to have the goals in him
So far this season he has proved me wrong
Maybe the lack of alternatives was planned as the club seen things we did not and knew he would come good eventually
 

I never thought DCL would make the grade for us
Had the pace and the physicality but never seemed to have the goals in him
So far this season he has proved me wrong
Maybe the lack of alternatives was planned as the club seen things we did not and knew he would come good eventually

What you see with DCL, as with a few others is the value of time and continuity.

I disagree with Terra about him being awful, to me he was never awful- and for a long time was quite an effective foil for other players. He didn't get enough goals though which was a fair criticism he has now answered.

The important issue is time though. Unless something drastially goes wrong, we will start next season with the same manager. That will mark a 4th season under Brands with only 2 managers. The previous 3 heralded 4. It's very hard to be successful when you have that level of turnaround. You can see it's even catching up with Chelsea.

Look at Keane, Iwobi, Mina, Holgate to a degree even Davies. They are all getting better because the DOF has given them time and space to settle in and improve. How many of that above list would people have happily binned with a new DOF coming in in the summer?

We didn't sign universally bad players. We can't really attract the best, and where we can they are normally with the cavaet they are past their peak (James and Allan). So we do have to gamble a bit on younger players. It generally takes them time to settle and a period of time to start showing returns. People go on about Moyes, who was excellent at recruitment, but his big secret was giving people that time. Lescott, Jagielka, Baines, Peinaar, Yobo etc- none came straight into the team. They were all eased in slowly and given every chance to succeed.

Brands appears to hold a similar value set. The issue initially was the manager just wasn't right. Silva had a lot of qualities, but his tactical management was woeful. If we can keep Brands and Ancelotti together for another 3-4 years, as Klopp has done, or Pep etc the sky is the limit.
 
By now I would have thought Brands would have made big changes at the academy
Apart from Davies who is only average its a long time( Rooney ) since we brought a first team regular from the academy
We normally buy them in and most do not work out
I would have expected major changes in the coaching staff at least

The reality is, Liverpool is not that big a place. It's surrounding areas are about half as big as Manchester (who because it's inland their academies have a full 360* coverage whereas we can only go 1 we, and we start to merge into Manchester as well). How many scousers have Liverpool brought through? Arnold was the 1st since Gerrard really, and Jones will be the next. Thats 2 in 20+ years.

In that time we have brought through Osman, Hibbert, Rodwell, Anichebe, Rooney, Kenny, Barkley & Davies. We now have Gordon. They are also bookended by Jeffers, Ball, Dunne & Cadamateri who all brought important finance into the club (and were the same age as Gerrard). I make that 3 for them and 12 for us, with us having the best player, and them having players 2 & 3 on the list in terms of quality. I appreicate Dunne was from Ireland, but he was with us before under 16 (a dynamic thats important for reasons below).

If you were generalising, we bring through more, they probably bring through better quality, which again is partly to do with the nature of the 2 clubs and where each has been over the intervening period. It's easier to play for Everton and get games, but you get exposure to better players at Liverpool (so maybe Rodwell & Barkley for example became Arnold level had they broke through there).

I mean we are bringing through 1 localish lad every 2-3 years. It's not bad- we would hope it's better but it's not terrible. Liverpools academy are very worried of the above too, that their catchment is smaller than rivals, and crucially that the demographics they recruit from tend to be overwhelmingly English parents. There's much less migration in Liverpool than say London or Manchester. Without sounding crude, there is an issue of physicality here, in that migrants will often be a big bigger and stronger (from certain parts of the world).

What Liverpool do, is pay big sign on fees and wages to a large number of players to supplement their academy from under 16's and particularly under 18's upwards. Most of the deal contain big sell on fees to previous teams too and often big fees in their own right. They probably do what we've done with Stones, Holgate, DCL but they did do 10+ of those per season. Even though they have reduced this somewhat, it is a big lag on the system, and contributes to the large wage bill they have (their wage bill is City levels of spend).

We are more measured in this. However any attempt to buy has been curtailed until this autumn. There was probably a limited amount we could do before then. This will be a time Brands is judged, alongside the new guy they've got from Derby. Unsworth is far from perfect but I do understand Brands belief in the need to have continuity and people who care and understand the DNA of the club through the academy. People go on about coaching and it's important, but if you're a parent, and club x has coaches from all over the place trying to recruit you, and club y has coaches who have played for that academy, played for the 1st team, had a career and then came back to contribute to the academy afterwards and are from that same area you are probably from, which is more compelling?

One thing we shoud stop, and appear to have stopped is endlessly rolling contracts on. More decisions need to be made at 19/20 on players. If you go much beyond that, with a few exceptional cases, you won't make it here.
 

By now I would have thought Brands would have made big changes at the academy
Apart from Davies who is only average its a long time( Rooney ) since we brought a first team regular from the academy
We normally buy them in and most do not work out
I would have expected major changes in the coaching staff at least

....the issue with the Academy might be more to do with Recruitment than coaching. The coaches can only work with what they are given. Not sure how many youngsters are coming through at other PL clubs who are pure Academy products (not acquired from clubs at home or abroad).

The strategy of purchasing young players is certainly working (low cost, low risk), given the likes of Stones, DCL, Holgate, Nkounkou, Lookman et al.
 
What you see with DCL, as with a few others is the value of time and continuity.

I disagree with Terra about him being awful, to me he was never awful- and for a long time was quite an effective foil for other players. He didn't get enough goals though which was a fair criticism he has now answered.

The important issue is time though. Unless something drastially goes wrong, we will start next season with the same manager. That will mark a 4th season under Brands with only 2 managers. The previous 3 heralded 4. It's very hard to be successful when you have that level of turnaround. You can see it's even catching up with Chelsea.

Look at Keane, Iwobi, Mina, Holgate to a degree even Davies. They are all getting better because the DOF has given them time and space to settle in and improve. How many of that above list would people have happily binned with a new DOF coming in in the summer?

We didn't sign universally bad players. We can't really attract the best, and where we can they are normally with the cavaet they are past their peak (James and Allan). So we do have to gamble a bit on younger players. It generally takes them time to settle and a period of time to start showing returns. People go on about Moyes, who was excellent at recruitment, but his big secret was giving people that time. Lescott, Jagielka, Baines, Peinaar, Yobo etc- none came straight into the team. They were all eased in slowly and given every chance to succeed.

Brands appears to hold a similar value set. The issue initially was the manager just wasn't right. Silva had a lot of qualities, but his tactical management was woeful. If we can keep Brands and Ancelotti together for another 3-4 years, as Klopp has done, or Pep etc the sky is the limit.
If i said he was awful, i didnt quite mean it that harshly, ive supported him all through, im not digging the lad, i feel im not putting my point across very well
 
The reality is, Liverpool is not that big a place. It's surrounding areas are about half as big as Manchester (who because it's inland their academies have a full 360* coverage whereas we can only go 1 we, and we start to merge into Manchester as well). How many scousers have Liverpool brought through? Arnold was the 1st since Gerrard really, and Jones will be the next. Thats 2 in 20+ years.

In that time we have brought through Osman, Hibbert, Rodwell, Anichebe, Rooney, Kenny, Barkley & Davies. We now have Gordon. They are also bookended by Jeffers, Ball, Dunne & Cadamateri who all brought important finance into the club (and were the same age as Gerrard). I make that 3 for them and 12 for us, with us having the best player, and them having players 2 & 3 on the list in terms of quality. I appreicate Dunne was from Ireland, but he was with us before under 16 (a dynamic thats important for reasons below).

If you were generalising, we bring through more, they probably bring through better quality, which again is partly to do with the nature of the 2 clubs and where each has been over the intervening period. It's easier to play for Everton and get games, but you get exposure to better players at Liverpool (so maybe Rodwell & Barkley for example became Arnold level had they broke through there).

I mean we are bringing through 1 localish lad every 2-3 years. It's not bad- we would hope it's better but it's not terrible. Liverpools academy are very worried of the above too, that their catchment is smaller than rivals, and crucially that the demographics they recruit from tend to be overwhelmingly English parents. There's much less migration in Liverpool than say London or Manchester. Without sounding crude, there is an issue of physicality here, in that migrants will often be a big bigger and stronger (from certain parts of the world).

What Liverpool do, is pay big sign on fees and wages to a large number of players to supplement their academy from under 16's and particularly under 18's upwards. Most of the deal contain big sell on fees to previous teams too and often big fees in their own right. They probably do what we've done with Stones, Holgate, DCL but they did do 10+ of those per season. Even though they have reduced this somewhat, it is a big lag on the system, and contributes to the large wage bill they have (their wage bill is City levels of spend).

We are more measured in this. However any attempt to buy has been curtailed until this autumn. There was probably a limited amount we could do before then. This will be a time Brands is judged, alongside the new guy they've got from Derby. Unsworth is far from perfect but I do understand Brands belief in the need to have continuity and people who care and understand the DNA of the club through the academy. People go on about coaching and it's important, but if you're a parent, and club x has coaches from all over the place trying to recruit you, and club y has coaches who have played for that academy, played for the 1st team, had a career and then came back to contribute to the academy afterwards and are from that same area you are probably from, which is more compelling?

One thing we shoud stop, and appear to have stopped is endlessly rolling contracts on. More decisions need to be made at 19/20 on players. If you go much beyond that, with a few exceptional cases, you won't make it here.
Screenshot_20210120-113248_Chrome.webp

Its a lot more than 3.
Quite a few in there mate.
 

....the issue with the Academy might be more to do with Recruitment than coaching. The coaches can only work with what they are given. Not sure how many youngsters are coming through at other PL clubs who are pure Academy products (not acquired from clubs at home or abroad).

The strategy of purchasing young players is certainly working (low cost, low risk), given the likes of Stones, DCL, Holgate, Nkounkou, Lookman et al.
I still think we are getting a poor return on academy prospects
Look at United ,look at the scum ,all doing better academy wise
 
Never heard of him, so not bothered in the slightest if we don't sign him. If we do, I'm sure Carlo rates him highly, so that's good enough for me.
 
I still think we are getting a poor return on academy prospects
Look at United ,look at the scum ,all doing better academy wise

A big part of that is mentality. They might not necessarily be better players technically a lot of the time, but belief and approach can make the the difference. Combined with the overall quality of team mates it can be the difference between a player making it or not.

Hopefully, with the players we are bringing in and the confidence Ancelotti seems to bring to players, together with a generally more positive outlook at the club, we should hopefully see an improvement in this area sooner or later.
 
....the issue with the Academy might be more to do with Recruitment than coaching. The coaches can only work with what they are given. Not sure how many youngsters are coming through at other PL clubs who are pure Academy products (not acquired from clubs at home or abroad).

The strategy of purchasing young players is certainly working (low cost, low risk), given the likes of Stones, DCL, Holgate, Nkounkou, Lookman et al.
But have you seen the under 23’s play. Even when we won the league the football was shocking.
unsworth is so defensively minded and negative it’s embarrassing. I think the reason we won them titles was because we had good players, with a number of them now in the championship and a couple on the prem.

Now we have average players, we are getting average results. Unsworth sets up half the time with 6/7 defenders on the pitch. And starts taking a forward off for a defender with 30mins to go, if we’re ever in front.

it’s long ball kick and rush football, David moyes style, playing as many older players as possible. It should all be about development, let the kids go out and play, be brave take risks, that’s what it should be all about

It also seems to me that unsworth has a lot of friends in the boardroom. IE bill “jobs for boys” kenwright and DBB. I’m gobsmacked he’s still in the job and Brands hasn’t took control.

The rumours of Brands signing his new deal at the AGM didn’t happen and his speech could’ve been interpreted as a good bye speech. Maybe he’s frustrated at the way the academy is being run.

The best thing the club can do is all the best kids, just bypass the 23’s and go straight up to the first team.

By all accounts, Unsworth even though he’s been promoted, he will still run the under 23’s
Unbelievable
 
Multi-quote bonanza...

Wow, standing there! Talking to another actual person and looking around! At a football match?! What a helmet.

Suprised you didn't call security and have the ruffian ejected personally.
Hi Ped!! ;)

young woman who recently changed her YouTube name . Charming and knowledgeable
What channel is this? Asking as someone looking for decent EFC content on youtube, not for any other reason.... :o :D
Also noted the negative feedback from Bayern fans. I quickly remembered that Southampton fans were happy to get rid of Hojberg, and that Napoli fans said Allan was past it.

A fresh start can completely change a player.

Even Walcott looks a lot brighter playing for Saints. Change is as good as a rest and all that.
Exactly. Wonder what Rangers and Ajax fans would have been saying when Arteta and Pienaar came here...
If he has seen what happened with Kean and Vlasic he won't touch with a crappy stick if I were him
Tbf, Kean is now playing well for one of the biggest/best teams in Europe... :o :p
Ok, mate.

Let's go back.





If you're so quick to slag the clubs handling of Kean and Vlasic, it's a bit It's disingenuous to then attribute Calvert-Lewins development as "luck"

Calvert-Lewin didn't get lucky.

He never "got a game because we didn't have anyone else".

Everton's Director of Football is on record - as I've demonstrated - saying we're not signing someone else because Calvert-Lewin has the potential.

You also sneer at fans as "the we want success now brigade don't allow for young players to develop", but you're doing the exact same thing here. Sneering at Zirkzee and writing him off already;
Where has he sneered at Zirkzee? He's just said he doesn't think he'll get a game here.

DCL certainly has been lucky. Brands et al may have had faith in him, but that doesn't mean he wasn't lucky. Lucky that when we had the money we spent it on Tosun, and not someone who was good enough to lead the line for us. Lucky that Brands believed in him. Lucky that Brands convinced/overruled Silva when he wanted to bring in another striker. Certain members of the club may have had their part in him continuing to get those chances, but he was still lucky to be in the position to get them. And certainly he got most of his game time because the only alternative was Tosun.

And for every DCL, not only is there a Kean and Vlasic, but a Lookman, a Gordon, a Kenny.

The reality is, Liverpool is not that big a place. It's surrounding areas are about half as big as Manchester (who because it's inland their academies have a full 360* coverage whereas we can only go 1 we, and we start to merge into Manchester as well). How many scousers have Liverpool brought through? Arnold was the 1st since Gerrard really, and Jones will be the next. Thats 2 in 20+ years.

In that time we have brought through Osman, Hibbert, Rodwell, Anichebe, Rooney, Kenny, Barkley & Davies. We now have Gordon. They are also bookended by Jeffers, Ball, Dunne & Cadamateri who all brought important finance into the club (and were the same age as Gerrard). I make that 3 for them and 12 for us, with us having the best player, and them having players 2 & 3 on the list in terms of quality. I appreicate Dunne was from Ireland, but he was with us before under 16 (a dynamic thats important for reasons below).

If you were generalising, we bring through more, they probably bring through better quality, which again is partly to do with the nature of the 2 clubs and where each has been over the intervening period. It's easier to play for Everton and get games, but you get exposure to better players at Liverpool (so maybe Rodwell & Barkley for example became Arnold level had they broke through there).

I mean we are bringing through 1 localish lad every 2-3 years. It's not bad- we would hope it's better but it's not terrible. Liverpools academy are very worried of the above too, that their catchment is smaller than rivals, and crucially that the demographics they recruit from tend to be overwhelmingly English parents. There's much less migration in Liverpool than say London or Manchester. Without sounding crude, there is an issue of physicality here, in that migrants will often be a big bigger and stronger (from certain parts of the world).

What Liverpool do, is pay big sign on fees and wages to a large number of players to supplement their academy from under 16's and particularly under 18's upwards. Most of the deal contain big sell on fees to previous teams too and often big fees in their own right. They probably do what we've done with Stones, Holgate, DCL but they did do 10+ of those per season. Even though they have reduced this somewhat, it is a big lag on the system, and contributes to the large wage bill they have (their wage bill is City levels of spend).

We are more measured in this. However any attempt to buy has been curtailed until this autumn. There was probably a limited amount we could do before then. This will be a time Brands is judged, alongside the new guy they've got from Derby. Unsworth is far from perfect but I do understand Brands belief in the need to have continuity and people who care and understand the DNA of the club through the academy. People go on about coaching and it's important, but if you're a parent, and club x has coaches from all over the place trying to recruit you, and club y has coaches who have played for that academy, played for the 1st team, had a career and then came back to contribute to the academy afterwards and are from that same area you are probably from, which is more compelling?

One thing we shoud stop, and appear to have stopped is endlessly rolling contracts on. More decisions need to be made at 19/20 on players. If you go much beyond that, with a few exceptional cases, you won't make it here.
Need rep back for this post ;) ;)
View attachment 114746
Its a lot more than 3.
Quite a few in there mate.
I mean, if you're gonna include half the players on that list, then we can add Connolly, Dowell and many more...
 

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