2023/24 Jarrad Branthwaite

[Neiler]

You've changed your argument half way through though so maybe you need to be a bit more precise with your wording. You started off by saying that Branthwaite is the superior player full stop and now you've pivoted to saying that he is better than Stones was at the same stage of his career. That's a completely different argument. I think you're forgetting how highly rated Stones was when he was here. The best team in the land paid £47.5 for him 8 years ago.

On the contrary mate, you said the sample on Branthwaite was too small to draw a conclusion in a rebuttal to my earlier statement, so i adjusted the debate to offer you a like for like sample comparatively to illustrate my point.

Stones had huge potential here and was really talented, he had skills that made him uniuqe, he was prone to a mistake though - but you expect that from a player his age, but also you could see his class. As i say im not dissing Stones, hes a very good player. I just think Branthwaite could be a great player and i think hes better then Stones in his first year in our team. Both things can exist without it being Binary.

 

[Neiler]

Out of interest, who would you pick as England's centre backs?

Who would i pick, be a harsh man that drops Stones, so you have to accommodate him, im not sure hes a great defender when a team is under the kosh - when he is more likely to be with England then City. He has a unique skill set mind and is such a useful unitality in terms of flooding lines, that's very attractive for a manager.

I think its Bananas Tarkowski isnt even in the squad, hes one of the best centre backs in the league certainly better then Maguire in my opinion and he would add much needed steel to that English team and leadership. I think there is also a strong case for Jarrod. Maybe thats blue tinted glasses, however - they are the strongest English centre back paring in the league.

 

[GoldenToffee]

Everton's defensive record strongly suggests that both Branthwaite and Tarkowski shouldn't just be in the England squad for Euro 2024, but rather starting the first game with Pickford behind them - a tried and tested, solid-as-a-rock, ENGLISH defensive unit.

Team with the third best defensive record in the league, with neither Arsenal or Liverpool, the only teams having performed better, having had a regular English centre back.

Second best clean sheet record in the league which speaks volumes to all three players as you're not getting clean sheets even if you're the best goalkeeper in the world if your centre halves aren't doing their jobs.

For a team that's struggled for large parts of the team with the world against it, that is a huge achievement.

Now I know Tarkowski for some strange reason isn't deemed by Southgate to be anywhere near good enough to play international level, and Branthwaite will have an outside chance at best of sitting on the bench 'getting experience' all tournament, and that for me is the reason why I want to see Southgate badly fail.

 

[Neiler]

Everton's defensive record strongly suggests that both Branthwaite and Tarkowski shouldn't just be in the England squad for Euro 2024, but rather starting the first game with Pickford behind them - a tried and tested, solid-as-a-rock, ENGLISH defensive unit.

Team with the third best defensive record in the league, with neither Arsenal or Liverpool, the only teams having performed better, having had a regular English centre back.

Second best clean sheet record in the league which speaks volumes to all three players as you're not getting clean sheets even if you're the best goalkeeper in the world if your centre halves aren't doing their jobs.

For a team that's struggled for large parts of the team with the world against it, that is a huge achievement.

Now I know Tarkowski for some strange reason isn't deemed by Southgate to be anywhere near good enough to play international level, and Branthwaite will have an outside chance at best of sitting on the bench 'getting experience' all tournament, and that for me is the reason why I want to see Southgate badly fail.

I think its also the blend as well mate. Jarrod and JT are rock soild and pure steel, both are killers in the way Magurie and Stones aren't - they wont be bullied. if you play Stones you have to allow him to be expansive, you compensate by tending to have say a midfield two of Rice, Henderon or a Phillips, to shore the central channel.

That's a waste of a midfield slot in my opinion, look at the array of attacking talent England have to accommodate - Foden, Saka, Palmer, Bellingham - thats before you think Mainoo, Rashford, Maddison or Gordon.

If you could sacrfice Henderson for say one of Palmer, Foden or Belligham - by being less expansive at the back and having JT or Jarrod in there, well i think its certainly worth a chat. Not to say JT or Jarrod arent good with ball at feet, they also as you say have synergy with Pickford, but they prob cant flood the next line like Stones can, but is it worth that at the expense of say a Bellingham.......

None of the above will happen mind and one of those really talented midfielders will be on the bench for Henderson and he will stick with Maguire and Stones.

 

[Raino85]

Who would i pick, be a harsh man that drops Stones, so you have to accommodate him, im not sure hes a great defender when a team is under the kosh - when he is more likely to be with England then City. He has a unique skill set mind and is such a useful unitality in terms of flooding lines, that's very attractive for a manager.

I think its Bananas Tarkowski isnt even in the squad, hes one of the best centre backs in the league certainly better then Maguire in my opinion and he would add much needed steel to that English team and leadership. I think there is also a strong case for Jarrod. Maybe thats blue tinted glasses, however - they are the strongest English centre back paring in the league.

You obviously didn't watch John Stones in this match, one of the best defensive displays in the past 10 years

Stones praises cool Man City heads as Atletico Madrid tempers flare

Manchester City beat Atletico Madrid across two hot-tempered Champions League quarter-final legs.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

 

[Neiler]

You obviously didn't watch John Stones in this match, one of the best defensive displays in the past 10 years

Stones praises cool Man City heads as Atletico Madrid tempers flare

Manchester City beat Atletico Madrid across two hot-tempered Champions League quarter-final legs.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

According to the Manchester evening news and i doubt youve watched every defender in a game for the last ten years mate! lol

Im not saying Stones is a bad player, so you dont have to prove it to me mate.

But at the point at hand, defending is easier when your playing for the best team in the world, i mean City empty heir bench most games and bring on about 200 mill of Subs. They defend by holding the ball and even then they press, which offers defenders a lot of protection. That changes the dynamic, teams have to a have a system and more often then not hand initiative to City and contain, thus City are rarely under the kosh. Thus you need a skill set like Stones who can be more expansive, hybrid and flood a line, rather then just stand at 6 or 5. Hes not the only one there mind, Ake can do it, Lewis and Gvardiol is playing everywhere at the moment. Im not saying there is anything wrong with that, its the way it is at City and what they want from their defenders.

I think that dynamic is different at England, England are what a mid level international team, so there will be times they are going to be more tested competitively and defensively then City are and what Stones is used to. Im not dismissing Stones, nor saying he should be dropped. But no player is perfect, they all have good days and bad, strengths and weaknesses and context influences both in nuance, its just analysis and discussion really - i was giving an opinion on a question you asked me. I certainly don't think Stones is flawless, nor do i think he's an awful footballer, he's a very good footballer, a niche defender, hes perfect for City really, though he has fallen out of favour at times and had injury problems to mind.

 

[Kevsleftpeg]

On the contrary mate, you said the sample on Branthwaite was too small to draw a conclusion in a rebuttal to my earlier statement, so i adjusted the debate to offer you a like for like sample comparatively to illustrate my point.

My word, you are infuriating to debate with. What's the difference between adjusting your debate and changing your argument? They are exactly the same thing.

Stones was 19 when he made his debut playing 21 games in our best ever Premier league team that finished 5th. Stones made his England debut aged 20 and was on standby for the World Cup squad aged 20. Branthwaite at the same age was in Everton's reserves and/or on loan because he wasn't deemed good enough.

Sure Stones made the odd mistake when he was 19/20 usually from over playing (Branthwaite wasn't near our first team at this time so no idea if he made any similar mistakes at that age) but I don't remember him getting sent off, giving away penalties or hanging legs out in the box though. I just remember a player who was an absolute rolls royce on the ball. Branthwaite looks imperious and I obviously hope he has as good a career as Stones if not better. But Stones was every bit as highly rated when he was here and he was playing in a better team which wasn't purely low block and were our expectations were higher.

 

[Raino85]

According to the Manchester evening news and i doubt youve watched every defender in a game for the last ten years mate! lol

Im not saying Stones is a bad player, so you dont have to prove it to me mate.

But at the point at hand, defending is easier when your playing for the best team in the world, i mean City empty heir bench most games and bring on about 200 mill of Subs. They defend by holding the ball and even then they press, which offers defenders a lot of protection. That changes the dynamic, teams have to a have a system and more often then not hand initiative to City and contain, thus City are rarely under the kosh. Thus you need a skill set like Stones who can be more expansive, hybrid and flood a line, rather then just stand at 6 or 5. Hes not the only one there mind, Ake can do it, Lewis and Gvardiol is playing everywhere at the moment. Im not saying there is anything wrong with that, its the way it is at City and what they want from their defenders.

I think that dynamic is different at England, England are what a mid level international team, so there will be times they are going to be more tested competitively and defensively then City are and what Stones is used to. Im not dismissing Stones, nor saying he should be dropped. But no player is perfect, they all have good days and bad, strengths and weaknesses and context influences both in nuance, its just analysis and discussion really - i was giving an opinion on a question you asked me. I certainly don't think Stones is flawless, nor do i think he's an awful footballer, he's a very good footballer, a niche defender, hes perfect for City really, though he has fallen out of favour at times and had injury problems to mind.

No mate, but i watched that game and it sticks in my head as a brilliant defensive performance.
I sent you the MEN article as reference to the fixture rather than there opinion.

 

[JimmyK]

Branthwaite is great but people definitely forget how good Stones was and don't respect how good he still is. Neiler saying he's OVERrated has to be one of the worst shouts I've ever seen he consistently goes totally under the radar despite having an absolutely incredible career only Rooney has been more talented than him in my time watching Everton. Branthwaite is a totally different type of player so its comparing apples and oranges but I don't think he's as refined as Stones which will affect how much teams will pay for him and which teams will want him which is why the biggest links are with United not with the current superpowers.

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

I think its also the blend as well mate. Jarrod and JT are rock soild and pure steel, both are killers in the way Magurie and Stones aren't - they wont be bullied. if you play Stones you have to allow him to be expansive, you compensate by tending to have say a midfield two of Rice, Henderon or a Phillips, to shore the central channel.

That's a waste of a midfield slot in my opinion, look at the array of attacking talent England have to accommodate - Foden, Saka, Palmer, Bellingham - thats before you think Mainoo, Rashford, Maddison or Gordon.

If you could sacrfice Henderson for say one of Palmer, Foden or Belligham - by being less expansive at the back and having JT or Jarrod in there, well i think its certainly worth a chat. Not to say JT or Jarrod arent good with ball at feet, they also as you say have synergy with Pickford, but they prob cant flood the next line like Stones can, but is it worth that at the expense of say a Bellingham.......

None of the above will happen mind and one of those really talented midfielders will be on the bench for Henderson and he will stick with Maguire and Stones.

This is so true and something that we've missed here at Everton for some time.

I'm on the fence though about Tarkowski's abilities for the world class level of international football. He's perfect as a rock solid defender for a mid table premier league club - nothing to sneeze at. Branthwaite might be just too young to get to that next level, but we can all see his upside is through the roof - I could see him getting selected.

But when I see the other names thrown about that are being considered for the squad, Tarks doesn't look out of place in that mix. Perhaps I'm underestimating him.

It's bananas Henderson continues to get considered, let alone selected.

 

[Neiler]

My word, you are infuriating to debate with. What's the difference between adjusting your debate and changing your argument? They are exactly the same thing.

Stones was 19 when he made his debut playing 21 games in our best ever Premier league team that finished 5th. Stones made his England debut aged 20 and was on standby for the World Cup squad aged 20. Branthwaite at the same age was in Everton's reserves and/or on loan because he wasn't deemed good enough.

Sure Stones made the odd mistake when he was 19/20 usually from over playing (Branthwaite wasn't near our first team at this time so no idea if he made any similar mistakes at that age) but I don't remember him getting sent off, giving away penalties or hanging legs out in the box though. I just remember a player who was an absolute rolls royce on the ball. Branthwaite looks imperious and I obviously hope he has as good a career as Stones if not better. But Stones was every bit as highly rated when he was here and he was playing in a better team which wasn't purely low block and were our expectations were higher.

You countered my point saying you couldn't draw a conclusion given a short sample, i met you half way by offering you a comparative sample, i didn't change my argument at all, i helped you out as you said you couldn't compare. Also the difference being your to our, to counter your point.

You can go back to Branthwaite in the youth team if you like but you have to include Stones's and his time at Barnsley as well.

Or in Brathwaite's case in his first 12 months as a starter, won the Dutch Cup, scoring the goal that took it to penalties, played in the Champions League Qualifiers and Europa League later stages, went on to be a part of the England squad that won the U21 European Champions, before establishing himself as the brightest star in the third meanest defence in the PL. Hold my beer.

Memory is a funny thing, yes Stones was very good on the ball, but he also defensively made a lot of mistakes - he got better, but he always had it in him, he still does if im being honest. But hes a very good player, wouldn't say otherwise, i dont think people need to make that point to me - i totally accept it and haven't argued anything else.

 

[Kevsleftpeg]

You countered my point saying you couldn't draw a conclusion given a short sample, i met you half way by offering you a comparative sample, i didn't change my argument at all, i helped you out as you said you couldn't compare. Also the difference being your to our, to counter your point.

You can go back to Branthwaite in the youth team if you like but you have to include Stones's and his time at Barnsley as well.

Or in Brathwaite's case in his first 12 months as a starter, won the Dutch Cup, scoring the goal that took it to penalties, played in the Champions League Qualifiers and Europa League later stages, went on to be a part of the England squad that won the U21 European Champions, before establishing himself as the brightest star in the third meanest defence in the PL. Hold my beer.

Memory is a funny thing, yes Stones was very good on the ball, but he also defensively made a lot of mistakes - he got better, but he always had it in him, he still does if im being honest. But hes a very good player, wouldn't say otherwise, i dont think people need to make that point to me - i totally accept it and haven't argued anything else.

I don’t remember all of these mistakes Stones made. I remember Branthwaite getting sent off, giving a pen away against Palace and being sat down by Haaland.

 

[Neiler]

I don’t remember all of these mistakes Stones made. I remember Branthwaite getting sent off, giving a pen away against Palace and being sat down by Haaland.

I think we leave it there - i dont see any purpose in raking eithers name through the mud or drawing up old history - its not productive or particularly healthy, so ill post the below and leave it there - safe to say we disagree. But for due diligence.

Everton defender Stones pelted by missiles after red in Young Boys win

Everton defender John Stones had to be shielded from a barrage of missiles as he left the field having been sent off in their fine 4-1 win at Young Boys on Thursday night in the Europa League.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Martinez: Stones has had 'incredible scrutiny'

Everton manager Roberto Martinez has urged John Stones' critics to be more rational in their assessment of him.

www.espn.com

'You know nothing John Stones': Everton defender roasted on social media after Merseyside derby

The Twittizens had no mercy for John Stones on Wednesday night as Everton crashed to an embarrassing 4-0 defeat to Liverpool in the Merseyside derby.

www.telegraph.co.uk

Everton fan call Stones a 'f****** rat' after transfer request

Some Everton fans appear to be somewhat displeased with defender John Stones after he handed in a transfer request earlier this week in an attempt to leave the club.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[JimmyK]

I think we leave it there - i dont see any purpose in raking eithers name through the mud or drawing up old history - its not productive or particularly healthy, so ill post the below and leave it there - safe to say we disagree. But for due diligence.

Everton defender Stones pelted by missiles after red in Young Boys win

Everton defender John Stones had to be shielded from a barrage of missiles as he left the field having been sent off in their fine 4-1 win at Young Boys on Thursday night in the Europa League.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Martinez: Stones has had 'incredible scrutiny'

Everton manager Roberto Martinez has urged John Stones' critics to be more rational in their assessment of him.

www.espn.com

'You know nothing John Stones': Everton defender roasted on social media after Merseyside derby

The Twittizens had no mercy for John Stones on Wednesday night as Everton crashed to an embarrassing 4-0 defeat to Liverpool in the Merseyside derby.

www.telegraph.co.uk

Everton fan call Stones a 'f****** rat' after transfer request

Some Everton fans appear to be somewhat displeased with defender John Stones after he handed in a transfer request earlier this week in an attempt to leave the club.

www.dailymail.co.uk

"I don't see any point in raking things up so i'll just trawl the internet for negative articles from 10 years ago but i'm totally not bothered about it i'm dead rational and everyone who agrees with me is unhealthy".

 

[Neiler]

"I don't see any point in raking things up so i'll just trawl the internet for negative articles from 10 years ago but i'm totally not bothered about it i'm dead rational and everyone who agrees with me is unhealthy".

Good summary to be fair to you mate.