Jagielka

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Our results are better not playing this tiki takka crap. So if we revert to it and don't get results that's Roberto. He does need to be flexible and have other options to play if his preferred method of football doesn't always work.
 

davek said:
We dont want average though.

Honestly, (and you should know this having seen him play often enough) I guarantee if we had someone like Van Dijk next season who could step into that CD unit you'd realise what the limitations were of persevering with Jagielka immediately.

Jagielka has you on tenterhooks when he has the ball at his feet playing out; a more polished player can be an asset and the first attacking movement we have in any forward play.

The problem is that you've been used to Jagielka + Distin for years. You feel you need the security blanket of two out and out stoppers rather than anything more creative. Martinez spotted that right away and knew he needed to break that ultra defensive mindset and get players playing. He helped that process on by deploying Barry/McCarthy back there as the CBs split last season. But we need a different approach now. We need what we've needed form the beginning: two solid defenders who can distribute and carry the ball from their own box.
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What's wrong with one out and out stopper and one ball player?

This was always my argument in favour of a possible future pairing of Duffy and Stones

Stones could play the football and Duffy could be the physical prescence to back him up

Almost a bodyguard in some way

Now, Jags doesn't have the same physical attributes as Shane does, but I still think the point stands that you can have best of both worlds with that sort of pairing
 
davek said:
Terry is a way superior CB to Jagielka in every aspect. Still.

Jagielka can play out if the play you have in mind is a 5 yard pass that usually has players turning into trouble.
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Who was comparing their defensive attributes? I was talking about their ability with the ball at their feet, plus i note you swerved mentioning Mertesacker.

What is it that you're expecting a CB to do with the ball? As Jags is more than capable of playing an accurate pass to a team mate. The myth that you're trying (and failing) to perpetuate that Jags is somehow derailing Martinez passing style of football is laughable. Jags is still one of the best CB's in the league and does a great job for the side.

Given Martinez idea of a quality CB is the bird man of Alcaraz I'm deeply concerned about his ability to bring in a CB worthy of the shirt, let alone one good enough to fill Jags sizeable boots.
 

Eric Djemba-Djemba said:
The Spanish can be proud knowing that they fought bravely and tried to win playing the right way. I don't think the same can be said of the Dutch.
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There is no "right" way to win and never has been

In the 30's, it was the "W-M"

In the 60's-70's, it was Samba 4-2-4 or Catenaccio

In the 80's-90's, it was with a Sweeper

In the 00's and onwards, it's been loads of passing. Passing here, passing there, passing all over the place. Passing for passing's sake. Loads and LOADS of passing. Passing out the wazoo.
"Did you score a goal mate?"
"yeah mate, top corner from 25 yards out. Chuffed with it to be honest"
"How many passes before you scored it?"
"Errr, just a couple I think"
"Pfft, can't have been that good of a goal then!"

Things will eventually change a new "right" way to play will surface. Thank God for that is all I can say
 
Eric Djemba-Djemba said:
I'd rather not get results and play football the right way.
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Eric Djemba-Djemba said:
The Spanish can be proud knowing that they fought bravely and tried to win playing the right way. I don't think the same can be said of the Dutch.
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What absolute guff

There's no such thing as the 'right way'.

You set out to win the particular game you're playing in with a set of tactics that both suit the resources you have at your disposal and takes account of the relative strengths and weaknesses of your opponent.

Take the last time we won a trophy as an example. In the SF we took the game to Spurs and smashed them into the a pulp. In the final we played a much conservative style and sat deep absorbing United's attacks and tried to grab one on the break or via a set piece. Both games were tactically perfect given the opposition and what Joe had to pick from. I doubt you'd have given a flying fig about the whether we played the game the 'right way' in that final, we played the winning way an that's all that ever ultimately matters.
 

davek said:
We dont want average though.

Honestly, (and you should know this having seen him play often enough) I guarantee if we had someone like Van Dijk next season who could step into that CD unit you'd realise what the limitations were of persevering with Jagielka immediately.

Jagielka has you on tenterhooks when he has the ball at his feet playing out; a more polished player can be an asset and the first attacking movement we have in any forward play.

The problem is that you've been used to Jagielka + Distin for years. You feel you need the security blanket of two out and out stoppers rather than anything more creative. Martinez spotted that right away and knew he needed to break that ultra defensive mindset and get players playing. He helped that process on by deploying Barry/McCarthy back there as the CBs split last season. But we need a different approach now. We need what we've needed form the beginning: two solid defenders who can distribute and carry the ball from their own box.
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But you still fail to give a decent answer to the examples you have been given of partnerships which consist of a "stopper" and a ball-playing centre half.

You will agree I am sure that Jagielka provides defensive stability.

So compare that stability and partnership with Stones to that of Vidic and his partnership with Ferdinand.

You aren't telling me surely that you think that V & F didnt work? How many titles did they win with that basis at the back?

And you can say until your blue in the face that Terry is a better centre half than Jagielka - he probably is, but he isnt better in possession/distributing.

So i fail to see why we need two ball-playing centre halves when we have a blossoming partnership at the club. Sure it's not for the long term, but there are far more pressing positions that need financial attention to this summer. Plus Jagielka has been superb since Distin was taken out of the side.

It's an agenda you have. Plain and simple.
 
mkrudden said:
But you still fail to give a decent answer to the examples you have been given of partnerships which consist of a "stopper" and a ball-playing centre half.

You will agree I am sure that Jagielka provides defensive stability.

So compare that stability and partnership with Stones to that of Vidic and his partnership with Ferdinand.

You aren't telling me surely that you think that V & F didnt work? How many titles did they win with that basis at the back?

And you can say until your blue in the face that Terry is a better centre half than Jagielka - he probably is, but he isnt better in possession/distributing.

So i fail to see why we need two ball-playing centre halves when we have a blossoming partnership at the club. Sure it's not for the long term, but there are far more pressing positions that need financial attention to this summer. Plus Jagielka has been superb since Distin was taken out of the side.

It's an agenda you have. Plain and simple.
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I haven't called for just ball playing CBs, I said that we need two that can defend well and distribute. You can have both qualities in the one player. And I'm not against retaining Jagielka - I've said so. But we have to have the options for CB turned on its head from what we've had in the recent past. We need the bias in favour of players who are very good at bringing out the ball. Martinez has tried to address this by bringing in Alcarez and forcing Distin out. The obvious fault with that choice is that Alcarez might be a distributor, but he's certainly not a defender too. It's been a disaster as a plan. But the instinct was right: get CBs into the club that can play. Retain the services of a stalwart like Jagielka (which he is as long as you forget the massive lapses in concentration he has each season).

As said: I'd be happy shipping Distin and Alcarez out; keeping Stones and Jagielka and bringing in a quality CB with experience but who's still got years ahead of him (like Van Dijk). Have those three and bring in either Browning or Galloway next season and blood them pre-season and involve them on the bench to bring through at the end of 2015/16.
 
ilikecheese said:
To be fair the English generally completely mispronounce every foreign name. They can't even say Boberto's last name right FFS...like one of the most common Spanish names, and they get it wrong every time.
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That's an emphasis thing, not pronunciation.
 
Mikey_Fitzgerald said:
What's wrong with one out and out stopper and one ball player?

This was always my argument in favour of a possible future pairing of Duffy and Stones

Stones could play the football and Duffy could be the physical prescence to back him up

Almost a bodyguard in some way

Now, Jags doesn't have the same physical attributes as Shane does, but I still think the point stands that you can have best of both worlds with that sort of pairing
Click to expand...

Why are you suggesting we buy an okay championship player to replace our captain?
 

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