Jagielka

Mikey_Fitzgerald · April 10, 2015

Here's an idea, let's not play it out the back

ijjysmith · April 10, 2015

Mikey_Fitzgerald said:
Here's an idea, let's not play it out the back

Don't be silly Michael.

davek · April 10, 2015

Seamus Colemole said:
Same way we did last season when he helped us get our record points total?

Disgrace to see how easy you turn on our captain, no loyalty whatsoever.

Or we could just wait till jags is successful in his plot to get rid of martinez and get big stubbsy in.

Jagielka in that first season under Martinez was very limited. Barry or McCarthy would step back in between the two CBs and get the ball rolling from defence. Opposition managers pick up on that though and it's less of a possibility as they learned to press it. Hence we had the prospect of Jagielka this season trying to do what Stones can do: bring it out himself but not having the skills to do it.

We need an upgrade on Jagielka for this system. Under Moyes Jagielka would be non-problematic; under a more fussy system he's a liability.

davek · April 10, 2015

Mikey_Fitzgerald said:
Here's an idea, let's not play it out the back

Then get a new manager in.

Mikey_Fitzgerald · April 10, 2015

ijjysmith said:
Don't be silly Michael.

Why is that silly?

Why do we need to play that way?

Does it matter the tactics so long as we win?

davek · April 10, 2015

Mikey_Fitzgerald said:
Why is that silly?

Why do we need to play that way?

Does it matter the tactics so long as we win?

Play like Stoke under Pulis and see how many games that wins you.

Of course it matters how you play, because that'll determine your success.

Mikey_Fitzgerald · April 10, 2015

davek said:
Then get a new manager in.

Or our current manager could be more tactically flexible

Just saying

If we want a ball playing CB, Virgil Van Dijk is currently waiting and is looking to move from Scotland to help his internatonal hopes, so we could look at him

But I don't see why we have to exclusively play one way, and why we'd have to jettison a good defender as well as our captain to do so

Christiffa25 · April 10, 2015

davek said:
Then get a new manager in.

Yes please!!

Although I'm very impressed that RM has wised up a little these past few weeks and sacrificed his tippy tappy rubbish from the back.

Unfortunately I fear he will revert right back to it when a few more points are on the board or start of next season.

Mikey_Fitzgerald · April 10, 2015

davek said:
Play like Stoke under Pulis and see how many games that wins you.

Of course it matters how you play, because that'll determine your success.

Oh FFS

Just because you don't do 20 passes in the middle of the park doesn't all of a sudden make you 2008 era Stoke

Foot Long Hot Dog · April 10, 2015

davek said:
Jagielka in that first season under Martinez was very limited. Barry or McCarthy would step back in between the two CBs and get the ball rolling from defence. Opposition managers pick up on that though and it's less of a possibility as they learned to press it. Hence we had the prospect of Jagielka this season trying to do what Stones can do: bring it out himself but not having the skills to do it.

We need an upgrade on Jagielka for this system. Under Moyes Jagielka would be non-problematic; under a more fussy system he's a liability.

That's utterly ridiculous. You're trying to make out Jags can't play out from the back when he's been doing it for Everton and England. He can play out from the back, but what he can't do is dribble past a man like Cruyff ffs. A centre back shouldn't be expected to either, I don't see Mourinho trying to get Terry to do that, or Wenger trying the same with Mertesacker.

You've just got a downer on Jags and you've scapegoated him for Martinez piss poor management all season

davek · April 10, 2015

Mikey_Fitzgerald said:
Or our current manager could be more tactically flexible

Just saying

If we want a ball playing CB, Virgil Van Dijk is currently waiting and is looking to move from Scotland to help his internatonal hopes, so we could look at him

But I don't see why we have to exclusively play one way, and why we'd have to jettison a good defender as well as our captain to do so

I'm not saying we do need to exclusively play one way. The opposition will on occasion be stronger and you need to adapt to reflect that. But you have to have a style of play that's your own - your trademark.

We know Martinez prefers to keep control of the ball. If he's true to that and not bending to the yahoos screaming to get it long every time we get hold of the ball then he has to assemble a squad accordingly. If he doesn't do that then I really see no point to him being here.

I'd far rather Martinez walked in the summer if he cant take crucial and difficult decisions on personnel comings and goings and sticking to his principles. Go down fighting with your beliefs in tact is always more preferable to bending to the will of a crowd and dying a thousand deaths of humiliation.

davek · April 10, 2015

Foot Long Hot Dog said:
That's utterly ridiculous. You're trying to make out Jags can't play out from the back when he's been doing it for Everton and England. He can play out from the back, but what he can't do is dribble past a man like Cruyff ffs. A centre back shouldn't be expected to either, I don't see Mourinho trying to get Terry to do that, or Wenger trying the same with Mertesacker.

You've just got a downer on Jags and you've scapegoated him for Martinez piss poor management all season

Terry is a way superior CB to Jagielka in every aspect. Still.

Jagielka can play out if the play you have in mind is a 5 yard pass that usually has players turning into trouble.

Mikey_Fitzgerald · April 10, 2015

davek said:
I'm not saying we do need to exclusively play one way. The opposition will on occasion be stronger and you need to adapt to reflect that. But you have to have a style of play that's your own - your trademark.

We know Martinez prefers to keep control of the ball. If he's true to that and not bending to the yahoos screaming to get it long every time we get hold of the ball then he has to assemble a squad accordingly. If he doesn't do that then I really see no point to him being here.

I'd far rather Martinez walked in the summer if he cant take crucial and difficult decisions on personnel comings and goings and sticking to his principles. Go down fighting with your beliefs in tact is always more preferable to bending to the will of a crowd and dying a thousand deaths of humiliation.

You're making out that Phil Jagielka couldn't pass the ball 2 yards

He's average at worst with the ball at his feet

davek · April 10, 2015

Mikey_Fitzgerald said:
You're making out that Phil Jagielka couldn't pass the ball 2 yards

He's average at worst with the ball at his feet

We dont want average though.

Honestly, (and you should know this having seen him play often enough) I guarantee if we had someone like Van Dijk next season who could step into that CD unit you'd realise what the limitations were of persevering with Jagielka immediately.

Jagielka has you on tenterhooks when he has the ball at his feet playing out; a more polished player can be an asset and the first attacking movement we have in any forward play.

The problem is that you've been used to Jagielka + Distin for years. You feel you need the security blanket of two out and out stoppers rather than anything more creative. Martinez spotted that right away and knew he needed to break that ultra defensive mindset and get players playing. He helped that process on by deploying Barry/McCarthy back there as the CBs split last season. But we need a different approach now. We need what we've needed form the beginning: two solid defenders who can distribute and carry the ball from their own box.