Is revolution the way forward?

[njligernj]

Ive said on another thread that we could do without Rodwell and sell him for a good fee to help us fund our own improvements, with the money fetched in for him we could atleast get 2 or 3 good signings for that. In the article the bloke makes a good point about Rodwell - 'though cashing in on Jack Rodwell may not be such a bad idea, given that his value outweighs his current usefulness', and IMO he's right.

We could sacrifice one player in Rodwell for a good fee from anything from 20 to 25 million so that we could sign a couple of wingers and a striker of the quality that we need and still keep the main core of our team,

Utter madness mate I'm sorry. If one of those signings doesn't work out (say the striker) then we've lost a midfielder with huge potential for almost nothing. Bird in the hand mate ... bird in the hand. We sold Lescott for that much and got Distin (has played extremely well but not exactly one for the future), Bily (hopefully he'll come good but not regarded as a great signing yet) and Heitinga (on his way out hopefully for a profit?). Plus the perception of that "trade off" is different because Lescott is older than Rodwell and was forcing a move. If we got those three for a much younger player with higher potential, and we decided without provocation to sell him, that's an entirely different situation and I think that piece of business would be looked at far more negatively.

Not to mention everyone always overlooks salaries. You take one player and turn him into three you've increased your wages. That move adds an extra 4m or so onto wages per year.

So you have:

Potential loss of world-class midfielder.
Increased wages.
Potential for new players to not perform well.
Further perception of being a selling club, knock-on effect on retaining other players (Fellaini).

Doesn't make sense on any level. As I said before, you can make a case for cashing in on older players in order to develop young players (like Rodwell!) but selling Rodwell doesn't make sense on any level. Just silly.

As for "revolution" ... what kind of bloody revolution involves casting out the young people who have never been in power? A revolution would involve (and I'm not saying we should do this) selling Neville and Arteta to play Rodwell and Coleman (and maybe some other youngsters). How is selling Rodwell a revolution? It's revolting but it's not a revolution.

People have an insanely illogical optimism about new signings -- like if only we had 10 mil to buy someone we're bound to get a 20 goal scorer for 10 million. Wish it were that easy but a lot of the time players don't work out.

There are many clubs in the Prem who have NOBODY as good as Rodwell coming up through their ranks. Evidently we're so blessed that some of our own just want to give him away because he hasn't got many games lately. Good grief. Get some perspective.

There are other posts on this message board about how we should be like Barca and develop from our youth system; then we get a potentially great player from our youth system and certain fans can't wait to ship him out for some completely unproven potential bust from the continent we'd buy with the money. Get a f'n grip lads.

 

[Aidey9]

Utter madness mate I'm sorry. If one of those signings doesn't work out (say the striker) then we've lost a midfielder with huge potential for almost nothing. Bird in the hand mate ... bird in the hand. We sold Lescott for that much and got Distin (has played extremely well but not exactly one for the future), Bily (hopefully he'll come good but not regarded as a great signing yet) and Heitinga (on his way out hopefully for a profit?). Plus the perception of that "trade off" is different because Lescott is older than Rodwell and was forcing a move. If we got those three for a much younger player with higher potential, and we decided without provocation to sell him, that's an entirely different situation and I think that piece of business would be looked at far more negatively.

Not to mention everyone always overlooks salaries. You take one player and turn him into three you've increased your wages. That move adds an extra 4m or so onto wages per year.

So you have:

Potential loss of world-class midfielder.
Increased wages.
Potential for new players to not perform well.
Further perception of being a selling club, knock-on effect on retaining other players (Fellaini).

Doesn't make sense on any level. As I said before, you can make a case for cashing in on older players in order to develop young players (like Rodwell!) but selling Rodwell doesn't make sense on any level. Just silly.

People have an insanely illogical optimism about new signings -- like if only we had 10 mil to buy someone we're bound to get a 20 goal scorer for 10 million. Wish it were that easy but a lot of the time players don't work out.

There are many clubs in the Prem who have NOBODY as good as Rodwell coming up through their ranks. Evidently we're so blessed that some of our own just want to give him away because he hasn't got many games lately. Good grief. Get some perspective.

There are other posts on this message board about how we should be like Barca and develop from our youth system; then we get a potential great player from our youth system and certain fans can't wait to ship him out for some completely unproven potential bust we'd buy with the money. Get a f'n grip lads.

Here, im not affraid to admit that losing Lescott was a very big blow for us, he wanted to go and we couldnt do nothing about it and tbh, we'd be better off with Lescott still at the club than having Distin, Heitinga and Bily IMO. And if Moyesy would of had more time to look about for other players then im sure he'd of used the Disitin and Heitinga money (£12m was it?) maybe on someone like Vertonghen who wasnt that well known at the time, then we'd of had a very good, up and coming CB in to replace Lescott instead of paying over the odds for an ageing Distin and a pointless signing in Heitinga, cos lets face it, when Jags and Distin are fit, he's a squad player and an expensive one at that!.

And you talk about wages but didnt we give Rodwell a very healthy wage rise with his new deal?. I'm sure he's on £30k+ wages a week these days, so thinkng about it, if we got in 3 new players, we could give one of them Rodwells wages and then just pay for theres on top, like you would do with new signings at the club anyway.

And i find it hard to see exactly what you see in Rodwell, 'potential world class midfielder'?. Dont get me wrong, he'll become good, but world class, i cant see it, i cant see him becoming world class in his own right and being talked about in the same breath as the likes of Fabregas, Iniesta, Xavi, Alonso, Gerrard, Ozil, Nasri, Essien and the likes (midfielders basically) who to me, are world class. I dont see enough things in Rodwell that suggests to me he will become world class, he as his moments but there few and far between, world class players start out and perform well to an high level and over a consistant basis and for 3 years already, Rodwell to me, hasnt shown anything or enough of should i say to make me think he will be as good as you think, personally i just dont see it and if Moyes truely did he'd find a place for him in the team to try and nuture him into that kind of performer and the fact is he cant get in the team for the likes of Felli, an out of form Arteta and Cahill.

I mean look at Arsenal for instance, they've got Fabregas, Song, Nasri, Rosicky, Denilson, all very good players but yet Wenger makes room for Wilshere, another young up and coming midfielder who he obviously believes in and thinks he is going to be class and i do too and to me, Rodwell isnt even in the same league as him!. Now to me, Wilshere looks like he's going to the very top, if he can add goals to his game then he'll become a complete midfielder for me, he tackles and gets stuck in, he makes very good space for himself and as good movement, he can pass and do the give and goes, the long range stuff and through balls by having great vision and he's also unselfish and isnt greedy and looks to take the shot on when in sight of goal (like a certain Rodwell does most of the time) and i dont see alot of all that in Rodwell, yeah he's got to great feet and likes a dig at goal and he's got a great physique and got a good engine by the looks of things but what else as he got, what things as he got to his game that makes him stand out to be a potential world beater, i just cant see much if im honest, he'll be good but i cant see him being world class.

If he does come on in leaps and bounds and makes me eat my words then ill gladly hold my hands up and say you lot was right and im wrong, but me personally, i dont think he'll improve to the standard of world class, but that doesnt mean i dont think he'll be good!.

 

[njligernj]

And you talk about wages but didnt we give Rodwell a very healthy wage rise with his new deal?. I'm sure he's on £30k+ wages a week these days, so thinkng about it, if we got in 3 new players, we could give one of them Rodwells wages and then just pay for theres on top, like you would do with new signings at the club anyway.

Accepting your (to be frank) fanciful scenario, most players you buy for around 10m are going to be on 30-40k so those two extra players would be about 4m extra per year. For a club in our financial situation you have to be very sure about the decision you are making to heap 4m onto the wage bill. Sad I know (blame the board -- everyone does) but we're on a shoestring and can't afford to make mistakes like that.

If he does come on in leaps and bounds and makes me eat my words then ill gladly hold my hands up and say you lot was right and im wrong, but me personally, i dont think he'll improve to the standard of world class, but that doesnt mean i dont think he'll be good!.

Okay so you'd class Rodwell as good (possibly very good but not great from the sounds of it).

So what level of player do you imagine we will buy with the Rodwell money? You've already pointed out how rare world class players are so I'd imagine you anticipate we will just get some very good players in return. You just like the idea of three very good players instead of one.

So, let's ignore for the moment the very real possibility that one (or all) of them could be busts.

Realistically, we wouldn't get all the money for transfers. Some goes onto debt. Let's say Moyes gets 15m (which is probably being generous given our board). That's one 10m player plus wages. Or three 2m players plus wages. The odds of all three turning out very good are very slim.

This, "if we get 25m for Rodwell we can buy three players for 8m" is just not real world. There are wages and debt to consider. Even if we ignore the debt and say Moyes got the whole 25m (not bloody likely but let's say he did) it's still not three 8m players because of wages. Three 5m players I'd say.

Way too much risk (loss of a potentially great player, perception we are a selling club, risk of not retaining other players, risk of adding wages, risk of losing money from new players being busts) for not much of a reward.

As I say, if you wanted to suggest selling Neville and Arteta to fund a striker I'd be more willing to understand where you are coming from (might not agree but it's far more "moneyball" or "soccernomics" logical).

Selling off our future (again) doesn't appeal to me.

 

[Aidey9]

Accepting your (to be frank) fanciful scenario, most players you buy for around 10m are going to be on 30-40k so those two extra players would be about 4m extra per year. For a club in our financial situation you have to be very sure about the decision you are making to heap 4m onto the wage bill. Sad I know (blame the board -- everyone does) but we're on a shoestring and can't afford to make mistakes like that.



Okay so you'd class Rodwell as good (possibly very good but not great from the sounds of it).

So what level of player do you imagine we will buy with the Rodwell money? You've already pointed out how rare world class players are so I'd imagine you anticipate we will just get some very good players in return. You just like the idea of three very good players instead of one.

So, let's ignore for the moment the very real possibility that one (or all) of them could be busts.

Realistically, we wouldn't get all the money for transfers. Some goes onto debt. Let's say Moyes gets 15m (which is probably being generous given our board). That's one 10m player plus wages. Or three 2m players plus wages. The odds of all three turning out very good are very slim.

This, "if we get 25m for Rodwell we can buy three players for 8m" is just not real world. There are wages and debt to consider. Even if we ignore the debt and say Moyes got the whole 25m (not bloody likely but let's say he did) it's still not three 8m players because of wages. Three 5m players I'd say.

Way too much risk (loss of a potentially great player, perception we are a selling club, risk of not retaining other players, risk of adding wages, risk of losing money from new players being busts) for not much of a reward.

As I say, if you wanted to suggest selling Neville and Arteta to fund a striker I'd be more willing to understand where you are coming from (might not agree but it's far more "moneyball" or "soccernomics" logical).

Selling off our future (again) doesn't appeal to me.

In the summer and this month havnt we got rid of or have loaned out players with the possibility of signing permenantly with there clubs this summer, the likes of Nash, Yobo, Yak, Pienaar and Vaughan, and got them off the wage bill and saved easily over £4m with those players already?.

And you talk about servicing a debt, but wasnt we in debt last summer (obviously) and had no money to spend and then Lescott wanted out and we sold him and apart from a percentage that went to Wolves, about £2m or so, Moyes got the lot to spend on Distin, Bily and Heitinga?.

And this summer we got rid of no one for decent money, brought no money in really and then gave out new deals to players, gave Arteta a bumper new deal and even though weve got rid of a few players recently, weve still gone and gave Anichebe and Coleman new deals, Coleman another new deal in less than 12 months?.

And you say selling off our future doesnt appeal to you, neither does it me but im realistic enough to know that if we dont sacrifice players for the sake of the team and Everton as an whole cos of the situation were in, we'll be in even bigger sheit than were in now, if we stay as we are and dont wheel and deal then in a few years time we'll be possibly in the championship mate and then this debate wont even matter cos the likes of Rodwell, Jags, Arteta, Felli, Baines and co will fcuk off anyway!.

Now like i say, i think Rodwell will become good, maybe very good but not brilliant but thats just me, i dont see anything very special in the aspects of his game to suggest he'll be world class and with our current midfielders in the squad already, he's not going to get in ahead of any of em, not Felli, Arteta or Cahill IMO.

I just think that if we could get a silly fee like £25m off say Man Utd and then Moyesy was given the lot and he was able to go out and buy the likes of maybe Elia, Piatti, Kranjcar, Holtby, Payet or Djalo to replace Pienaar and then sign a striker of the quality of Ibisevic, Gameiro, van Wolfswinkel, Pablo Osvaldo, Papiss Cisse, Janko, Byran Ruiz or Podolski (possible when you have money) that we need, then we'd be better off, there the kinds of players that we need for now and the future, Rodwell isnt needed for now, he's more for the future but who's to say if we stick to what we have we wont end up worse off and then end up losing him anyway?!.

And if we was to let him go for the sake of our own team building, then there's a young lad called Barkley waiting to come through and step into his shoes, and from what ive read and the little ive seen of him, he does look a player and he's a genuine midfielder, there's very high hopes for this kid when he recovers from injury, we even gave him a 2 year contract just weeks after breaking his leg cos he's that well thought of, we could end up get rid of Rodwell and possibly have a much better talent coming through the ranks to become the next big thing to graduate from the academy?!.

 

[Aidey9]

Haha im not trying to stir anything btw mate, it looks like were having a right ding dong here dont it! haha.

 

[chicoazul]

Pfft. He well copied that post I did the other week that bored the **** out of you.

 

[njligernj]

In the summer and this month havnt we got rid of or have loaned out players with the possibility of signing permenantly with there clubs this summer, the likes of Nash, Yobo, Yak, Pienaar and Vaughan, and got them off the wage bill and saved easily over £4m with those players already?.

But Arteta, Coleman and others got more money.

Regardless, we cannot afford our current wages. Even if we loan or sell players, we still cannot afford the wages we pay. We lose money. We have no money. Then only years we don't lose money are when we sell players. If we spend all the money we get on a transfer on other players and wages then we lose money again. You can go ahead and add the 4m if you like and justify it with some in/out math but even given where we're likely to finish this year we could cut 10m in salary and add nobody and we'd probably still post a loss.

And you talk about servicing a debt, but wasnt we in debt last summer (obviously) and had no money to spend and then Lescott wanted out and we sold him and apart from a percentage that went to Wolves, about £2m or so, Moyes got the lot to spend on Distin, Bily and Heitinga?.

Moyes didn't want to sell and threw a fit until he got all the money to spend (and even then people said we didn't spend all the money -- the OS had to release an official statement explaining how we did). Moyes wouldn't have as much leverage to get all the money if he himself decided to sell.

I just think that if we could get a silly fee like £25m off say Man Utd and then Moyesy was given the lot and he was able to go out and buy the likes of maybe Elia, Piatti, Kranjcar, Holtby to replace Pienaar and then sign a striker of the quality of Ibisevic, Gameiro, van Wolfswinkel, Pablo Osvaldo that we need, then we'd be better off

Maybe but those are some massive IFs. Your confidence in transfers is baffling to me. Moyes makes mistakes, Ferguson does too ... everyone does. Barca, Madrid, Citeh, RS ... they all throw tons of money down the drain on players who don't work out. Again ... bird in the hand.

We know Rodwell can play in the Prem. His potential is up for debate but few doubt he can play in the Prem.

We have almost zero room for errors in the transfer market. If we sold Rodwell and then missed on the players we brought in (which even with Moyes, whom I rate very highly, is still a very real possibility) it could really damage the club seriously.

then there's a young lad called Barkley waiting to come through and step into his shoes, and from what ive read and the little ive seen of him, he does look a player and he's a genuine midfielder, there's very high hopes for this kid when he recovers from injury, we even gave him a 2 year contract just weeks after breaking his leg cos he's that well though of, we could get rid of Rodwell and possibly have a much better talent coming through?!.

Barkley, Rodwell and Fellaini playing together sounds better to me.

 

[njligernj]

Pfft. He well copied that post I did the other week that bored the **** out of you.

I wish ... if I'd known there was something to copy it would have saved me a lot of bloody time I wasted here.

 

[chicoazul]

I wish ... if I'd known there was something to copy it would have saved me a lot of bloody time I wasted here.

No, I meant the author of that article lid.

 

[njligernj]

No, I meant the author of that article lid.

Oh ... fair enough. Losing my mind in this thread ... have to flee.

 

[Aidey9]

But Arteta, Coleman and others got more money.

Regardless, we cannot afford our current wages. Even if we loan or sell players, we still cannot afford the wages we pay. We lose money. We have no money. Then only years we don't lose money are when we sell players. If we spend all the money we get on a transfer on other players and wages then we lose money again. You can go ahead and add the 4m if you like and justify it with some in/out math but even given where we're likely to finish this year we could cut 10m in salary and add nobody and we'd probably still post a loss.



Moyes didn't want to sell and threw a fit until he got all the money to spend (and even then people said we didn't spend all the money -- the OS had to release an official statement explaining how we did). Moyes wouldn't have as much leverage to get all the money if he himself decided to sell.



Maybe but those are some massive IFs. Your confidence in transfers is baffling to me. Moyes makes mistakes, Ferguson does too ... everyone does. Barca, Madrid, Citeh, RS ... they all throw tons of money down the drain on players who don't work out. Again ... bird in the hand.

We know Rodwell can play in the Prem. His potential is up for debate but few doubt he can play in the Prem.

We have almost zero room for errors in the transfer market. If we sold Rodwell and then missed on the players we brought in (which even with Moyes, whom I rate very highly, is still a very real possibility) it could really damage the club seriously.



Barkley, Rodwell and Fellaini playing together sounds better to me.

Yeah that makes sense aye, we cant afford our wages we currently pay but yet we give Arteta a bumper new deal, Cahill new terms i think it was, Pienaar had a very good offer on the table, Rodwell signed for new terms and then as recently as last week we gave Anichebe a new deal and Coleman improved terms in the space of what, 7 or 8 months of his other new deal, yeah that makes good business sense to hike up the current wage bill when we supposedly cant afford to pay what we was before or now.


And why is it baffling, do you not think these kind of players would be interested in signing for us or more importantly, good enough?. Apparently in the summer if we'd of had the money, we supposedly had a chance to sign either Dzeko or Hazard, now there the kind of players i wouldnt think we'd have a chance of signing, no way!.

Pfft, im not going to say nothing no more and be ignorant to our current financial state and the s h i t were in and like you i want us to keep what weve got and carry on struggling, fcuk to wanting better for Everton, i'll just sit back and watch us get worse before it ever gets better, cos believe me, if we stand still and dont take drastic action like sell an asset, we will fall further behind and eventually drop out of the league.

 

[njligernj]

Yeah that makes sense aye, we cant afford our wages we currently pay but yet we give Arteta a bumper new deal, Cahill new terms i think it was, Pienaar had a very good offer on the table, Rodwell signed for new terms and then as recently as last week we gave Anichebe a new deal and Coleman improved terms in the space of what, 7 or 8 months of his other new deal, yeah that makes good business sense to hike up the current wage bill when we supposedly cant afford to pay what we was before or now.

There is no "supposedly" about it mate. Check the books -- we lose money almost every year. Check out this article if you haven't already: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/378517-why-has-nobody-bought-everton

As for "business sense" ... this is football. How much business sense does Chelsea or Man City make? That said, if you want a business justification, it's cheaper to keep a player like Arteta if you already have him than buy him (at least the finished article -- I know Arteta didn't cost much when he came but you can't rely on every 2-3m purchase turning into Arteta). Plus everything is done with money yet to arrive in mind (TV revenue for next year, league position and so forth), not the money we already have (which is none).

A big part of the reason we aren't buying anyone in this window (or even being able to afford loans) is our current league position has the board worrying about the size of end of season cheque from the Prem. If we were on pace for 5th or 6th that's maybe 4m extra -- which would help fund a player or at least some loans. As it is they're looking at less revenue than expected so they aren't spending anything. It's a horrible situation (and yes we'd like a new billionaire owner please) but that is the fact of the situation. I may not like it (nobody likes it) but there is no point coming on here and running FM fantasies about doing this and doing that when the reality is we're skint. If you said sell Rodwell and buy one new player (or three very cheap players) you'd at least be in the realm of what this board would realistically do. Doesn't matter what happened with Lescott. Completely different situation. Again, I don't like it, but it's reality.

Pfft, im not going to say nothing no more and be ignorant to our current financial state and the s h i t were in and like you i want us to keep what weve got and carry on struggling, fcuk to wanting better for Everton, i'll just sit back and watch us get worse before it ever gets better, cos believe me, if we stand still and dont take drastic action like sell an asset, we will fall further behind and eventually drop out of the league.

First off what we want is the same thing, we just disagree on the best way to obtain that goal. As I said before, which you seem determined to ignore, transfers are a big risk. Every team, including Everton, including the world powers of football, make bad decisions on transfers. Citeh, Barca et al. can afford to make mistakes -- we can't. If we sell a player like Rodwell and miss on the transfer that could be disastrous. I don't share the thought that keeping him means relegation; nor do I share the opinion that selling him would really help us catch up. Fair play rules and a new owner might help.

 

[Andriy.EFC]

There would have been murder if we sold Arteta and Cahill two years ago. There would be murder if we sold them now! But yes, under Kenwright it's our only way. Sell and buy younger players.

 

[TheFinnFan]

There would have been murder if we sold Arteta and Cahill two years ago. There would be murder if we sold them now! But yes, under Kenwright it's our only way. Sell and buy younger players.

or.. kenwright is looking for suitable buyer for the club. but hey, that red in "thesun"

 

[Aidey9]

There is no "supposedly" about it mate. Check the books -- we lose money almost every year. Check out this article if you haven't already: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/378517-why-has-nobody-bought-everton

As for "business sense" ... this is football. How much business sense does Chelsea or Man City make? That said, if you want a business justification, it's cheaper to keep a player like Arteta if you already have him than buy him (at least the finished article -- I know Arteta didn't cost much when he came but you can't rely on every 2-3m purchase turning into Arteta). Plus everything is done with money yet to arrive in mind (TV revenue for next year, league position and so forth), not the money we already have (which is none).

A big part of the reason we aren't buying anyone in this window (or even being able to afford loans) is our current league position has the board worrying about the size of end of season cheque from the Prem. If we were on pace for 5th or 6th that's maybe 4m extra -- which would help fund a player or at least some loans. As it is they're looking at less revenue than expected so they aren't spending anything. It's a horrible situation (and yes we'd like a new billionaire owner please) but that is the fact of the situation. I may not like it (nobody likes it) but there is no point coming on here and running FM fantasies about doing this and doing that when the reality is we're skint. If you said sell Rodwell and buy one new player (or three very cheap players) you'd at least be in the realm of what this board would realistically do. Doesn't matter what happened with Lescott. Completely different situation. Again, I don't like it, but it's reality.



First off what we want is the same thing, we just disagree on the best way to obtain that goal. As I said before, which you seem determined to ignore, transfers are a big risk. Every team, including Everton, including the world powers of football, make bad decisions on transfers. Citeh, Barca et al. can afford to make mistakes -- we can't. If we sell a player like Rodwell and miss on the transfer that could be disastrous. I don't share the thought that keeping him means relegation; nor do I share the opinion that selling him would really help us catch up. Fair play rules and a new owner might help.

Atleast Chelsea and Man city have the financial backing to pay there wages, your telling me we couldnt afford are exisisting wage bill but yet weve given improved terms to a number of players and hiked up a wage bill thats not affordable even more!. If thats the case then thats even worrying because if we have a wage bill we cant afford and no future investment on the arizon, then how we meant to keep up with payments, we cant keep increasing debt, banks will want something back and that could mean selling players, and not just the likes of Yobo, Yak, Pienaar and Vaughan who have all gone or as good as this month so come summer time, we might have to sell someone anyway to please the banks with no new investment coming in what so ever.

And you mention money coming in from tv revenue yeah, we wont ever see that money or any tv revenue for seasons to come as we already took out loans on the strength of that years ago, i read an article on another forum and it showed you what and who we'd loaned from and the money we would recieve from sky was already tied up to service loans we took out years ago and i think what ever money we do get from sky up until about 2015 i think it was, is going straight to which ever bank we loaned from, we wont see a penny and thats why we havnt seen a penny for years, exsisting loans was taken out on the strength of future revenue from sky, we wont be seeing no tv money for a few years!.

And you might not share my views about keeping/selling Rodwell but just answer me this, if we keep Rodwell yeah, i take it you want to keep everyone else too right?. so if we do and your banking on these fair play rules or a new investor, well with the fair play rules yeah, ive just blown that out of the water cos we cant even spend are own means because its already owed out to banks (and i forgot to mention up there that money from season ticket sales is even signed over to go towards servicing loan arrangements) so will leave us with nothing, and no new invester is on the arizon at all so where do you expect us to find the money for us to compete next season atleast?.

All im saying is look at us now, were 5 points off a relegation spot, in the attacking third we dont score enough goals or create enough chances to win games, and in truth games that were expected to win but weve either lost or dropped points, and in that respect were struggling badly and yet you want to keep what weve got knowing full well we have not got a pot to piss in and no money coming in or investment and knowing full well we need a striker and possibly a couple of wingers as were in desperate need of goals and match winners and knowing all the clubs above us will improve and the ones below us will aswell?!.

Next season if we go with what weve got, then were going to really struggle again, and then who's to say after that season the likes of Jags, Baines, Felli, Arteta, Rodwell and Coleman wont fcuk off anyway as were skint, struggling and showing no ambition what so ever?!. All them ive named will go if there as ambitious as they make out to be, some of them havnt won trophies in there footballing career, one or two have and will want to again and clubs who have have been linked to these lot definitely have or have a chance of doing such a thing so they will p i s s off and then we will be in **** cos we wont be able to replace em with better or similar quality i dont think if we have a 3rd season of struggles, who with real quality will want to come to us, a team struggling in the lower reaches of the league, no one, no one did when Moyes first took over and we was up and down for a few seasons, we had to settle for the likes of Wright, Kilbane (did a good job though), Bent (did a good job for us), Li Tie and that other chinc, McBride (although i thought he was good), Jeffers back on loan and McFadden to name a few, we started qualifying for Europe and finishing 6th and then 5th twice on the trot etc and the likes of van der Meyde (although he was a let down), Yak, Fernandes, Fellaini, Distin, Bily and Heitinga, all a better quality of player, wanted to play for us as they all thought we was a good team and going places and hopefully win things.

But were skint and cant invest in the team to hopefully change are fortunes to try and have a crack at the European spots again but me personally in the sheit situation were in with no money, no investment coming in anytime soon, i'd sacrifice a player like Rodwell who's valuation well out weighs his usefulness to us right now for the sake of possibly giving us the much needed cash to maybe go out and bring in the required quality to atleast keep us going for a few more years and possibly give us a chance to qualify for Europe so we can keep the exsisting core of the squad and who knows, if we start qualifying for Europe regulary or even luckily make the champions league one year then we'd start bringing in fresh income from that to keep us ticking along.

I understand what your saying when you talk about signings being risks but in the situation were in what doesnt look like changing anytime soon, i'd rather us risk selling one player in Rodwell who isnt a first teamer, for a decent fee and go out and buy the players we all know we need and have a go that way and try to keep up with the teams above then not sell anyone, keep what weve got and risk falling further behind everyone and then risk losing more than just Rodwell in the future cos it will happen if we dont take drastict action whilst were in such a predicimant, we will stand still or fall behind and then when everyone does want out, what do we do then?.