Gana and his technicolour football shirt (that he doesn't like)

[Paul Rideout]

But he wore Chang on his shirt? Beretta sponsor us. Nobody is asking him to drink and eat the stuff, just as no one is asking him to do gay stuff ?

The rest, I agree with you.

Didn't a Muslim football player remove beer from a press conference in the champs league??? before Ronaldo did it?

 

[Brett Angell Delight]

It’s hardly edgy is it. Religious text says something is forbidden on a list of forbidden things, so person who is devout follower of religion thinks it’s all forbidden. Binomial. If it’s on the list you’re going to hell.

I don’t believe in that shizz - personally I think if society deems it ok as a collective then it should be passed into law as legal (or not criminal) and everything goes on. However. When laws pass two things as legal, and they have a juxtaposition on an outlook, then legally both have a place to exist without persecution for following the guidelines which they are legally entitled to follow, no???

And forcing a Muslim who believes homosexuality is not gods way to wear a rainbow top supporting LGBTQ++ isn’t cool (IMO) … it’s sends the wrong message about us being the peoples club in the ‘live and let live’ mantra… because what you’re saying is ‘live and let live… unless you’re not living my way’

This is entirely the point though, mate: nobody has forced/is forcing him to do anything.

The proposed relationship is employer/employee. If the club held the values it said it did, he wouldn’t/shouldn’t be employed by them it really is that simple. It doesn’t mean he or his religion is wrong, it’s just a clash - as you quite rightly point out - between two sets of ideals that are not illegal but cannot coexist together.

As it is, it’s all moot because our club is a soulless pit, devoid of the community spirit it spends most of the time ramming down people’s throats. Funny old game.

 

[ClausThomsen]

An exercise for those who don't want us to sign Gana because of his monochrome tastes.

step one: list the 10 commandments (a religious text most on here will know well enough)
step two: pick the most abhorrent act on there (in your opinion).
step three: ask if you would openly support this.

consider that for someone who is deep into religion, these are directives from God which if broken send you to hell... you might understand why he might be against being forced to openly support pride.

you probably wont, which is why you're not as a tolerant person as you consider yourself to be, and should probably campaign for religion to be banned in this country.

Interesting you highlight the need to pick the "most abhorrent" act for your exercise. Not just any of the ten commandments....

 

[woodsyni]

Christian soccer player who refused to wear pride jersey not on U.S. World Cup roster - Outsports

The USWNT announced their 23-player roster for the 2019 World Cup and Jaelene Hinkle’s name isn’t on it

www.outsports.com

I'll leave this here... first example which provides evidence to the contrary of your statement.

second point - you're advocating following the collective beliefs of the club (not mandated in the contract I would wager btw) at the sacrifice of the individuals? Sounds like an ideology from the soviet union.

If someone came out as a racist, is it ok to boo them? Andy Gray and yer man lost their jobs for sexism. Surely someone's beliefs can't trump someone's human rights?

Didn't a Muslim football player remove beer from a press conference in the champs league??? before Ronaldo did it?

Bit different from having it splashed across your chest?

 

[Paul Rideout]

Tolerance is very much subjective.

you're correct (obviously) - what I should have said was it's not something I feel someone can or should accurately self-appoint unto themselves.

 

[Shevin Keedy]

you're correct (obviously) - what I should have said was it's not something I feel someone can or should accurately self-appoint unto themselves.

That's a fair point.

 

[Paul Rideout]

Interesting you highlight the need to pick the "most abhorrent" act for your exercise. Not just any of the ten commandments....

If you're a devout christian who believes the whole thing is there a difference between any of the commandments in their severity>

is the point I'm trying to make.

 

[Paul Rideout]

If someone came out as a racist, is it ok to boo them? Andy Gray and yer man lost their jobs for sexism. Surely someone's beliefs can't trump someone's human rights?
Bit different from having it splashed across your chest?

Doesn't Gana have the human right to choose not to actively support Gay Pride without fear of prejudice or repercussion?

Especially if he has not signed a contract which deems him legally obliged to do so.

Do you think it's Homophobic to not actively support gay pride? I got to say I was at the London pride march this year and assuming it was exclusively for London residents there must be about 7 million homophobes in London alone.

I don't support his stance FYI (It would make my life quite complicated if I did) but I do value an individuals right to choose so long as it's within the confines of the Law.

 

[woodsyni]

Doesn't Gana have the human right to choose not to actively support Gay Pride without fear of prejudice or repercussion?

Especially if he has not signed a contract which deems him legally obliged to do so.

He can certainly do so but I think homophobia, racism and sexism are fair comparisons. You wouldn't be too chuffed about a racist coming to the club.

 

[Paul Rideout]

He can certainly do so but I think homophobia, racism and sexism are fair comparisons. You wouldn't be too chuffed about a racist coming to the club.

It's an interesting point of discussion. Is refusing to wear a rainbow shirt in support of Gay Pride actively Homophobic? Is there a difference between refusing to actively support Gay Pride and being homophobic? If so then surely not attending the gay pride marches is seen as a homophobic stance.

If someone refused to wear an 'I'm a feminist' t-shirt is that displaying a sexist attitude? does refusing to expressly support feminism make you sexist (I genuinely don't know)? If I hold a door open for a woman, thats Chivalry... which in itself is deep-rooted sexism, no? treating a woman differently to a man. Can you be Chivalrous to another man...

Do you think everyone who took the knee actually supported black lives matter or do you think there was a large amount of peer pressure - When Zaha started to not take the knee does that make him racist?

Would I be chuffed at a racist or a sexist coming to a club? absolutely not. Do I think there is a difference between someone not taking the knee to black lives matter and a racist? absolutely. do I think all these things are binomials of 1 and 0 ... absolutely not.

Steven Pienaar - charged with assault (of a woman)/drink driver
Darren Gibson - Drink driver/hit and run (IIRC)

That shower defended Suarez - he's a racist IIRC... Barcelona welcomed him with open arms after.

football fans (actually humanity in general) turn a blind eye when it suits.

(Genuine questions/postulations/thoughts that I don't think there are simple yes/no answers to.)

 

[woodsyni]

It's an interesting point of discussion. Is refusing to wear a rainbow shirt in support of Gay Pride actively Homophobic? Is there a difference between refusing to actively support Gay Pride and being homophobic? If so then surely not attending the gay pride marches is seen as a homophobic stance.

If someone refused to wear an 'I'm a feminist' t-shirt is that displaying a sexist attitude? does refusing to expressly support feminism make you sexist (I genuinely don't know)? If I hold a door open for a woman, thats Chivalry... which in itself is deep-rooted sexism, no? treating a woman differently to a man. Can you be Chivalrous to another man...

Do you think everyone who took the knee actually supported black lives matter or do you think there was a large amount of peer pressure - When Zaha started to not take the knee does that make him racist?

Would I be chuffed at a racist or a sexist coming to a club? absolutely not. Do I think there is a difference between someone not taking the knee to black lives matter and a racist? absolutely. do I think all these things are binomials of 1 and 0 ... absolutely not.

Steven Pienaar - charged with assault (of a woman)/drink driver
Darren Gibson - Drink driver/hit and run (IIRC)

That shower defended Suarez - he's a racist IIRC... Barcelona welcomed him with open arms after.

football fans (actually humanity in general) turn a blind eye when it suits.

(Genuine questions/postulations/thoughts that I don't think there are simple yes/no answers to.)

It is a complex topic, to be sure and we'll certainly not resolve it on an internet forum (though not going to a Pride event making you homophobic is like saying not going to a match means you're not an Everton supporter).

I've said before that these things require generational change. I do not put societal/religious attitudes at the feet of an individual. We still need to call these things out though as things will never change if we don't.

Most of my work colleagues are devout/fundamental Christians and I have learnt to work with (and like/support) them. If they say something homophobic, I call them out. Same thing, sort of. Doesn't mean the relationship has to break down. I therefore will support Gana when/if he comes.

Pragmatic approach rather than double-standards, I hope.

Anyway, that'll do me. I have to go pack. Up at 4 a.m. for a flight to Liverpool! I'm like a kid when I'm getting over for a match! ??

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

As long as he does the bizz on the pitch I'm not that arsed.

 

[Armaghtoffee]

Surely we have to look for a way to show support for causes that doesn't put individuals in the spotlight.

The whole thing is sometimes counter-productive and causes more harm than good. Also, if it's expected that everyone does it (like the taking the knee and poppies), is it really a sincere gesture? I'm definitely not against any of the gestures, just question the effectiveness, by the way.

Is it possible to find practical, on the ground support for these causes? Everton are usually very good at that sort of thing.

This ?

 

[Paul Rideout]

It is a complex topic, to be sure and we'll certainly not resolve it on an internet forum (though not going to a Pride event making you homophobic is like saying not going to a match means you're not an Everton supporter).

I've said before that these things require generational change. I do not put societal/religious attitudes at the feet of an individual. We still need to call these things out though as things will never change if we don't.

Most of my work colleagues are devout/fundamental Christians and I have learnt to work with (and like/support) them. If they say something homophobic, I call them out. Same thing, sort of. Doesn't mean the relationship has to break down. I therefore will support Gana when/if he comes.

Pragmatic approach rather than double-standards, I hope.

Anyway, that'll do me. I have to go pack. Up at 4 a.m. for a flight to Liverpool! I'm like a kid when I'm getting over for a match! ??

Lucky Guy, jealous.

(This is an entirely true statement) I'm finding somewhere to watch the match before going for a meal with my Girlfriend and her/my Gay couple friends and also her Lesbian couple friends who are in town from San Francisco (which is the 'wedding where she met her gays' - her words).

I'm 100% sure this will come up, and it will be fascinating.

 

[woodsyni]

Lucky Guy, jealous.

(This is an entirely true statement) I'm finding somewhere to watch the match before going for a meal with my Girlfriend and her/my Gay couple friends and also her Lesbian couple friends who are in town from San Francisco (which is the 'wedding where she met her gays' - her words).

I'm 100% sure this will come up, and it will be fascinating.

Enjoy mate ?

I don't know much, but I'm pretty sure everyone will have a slightly different viewpoint and, like all situations in real life, rather than internet life, you'll all respect each other's viewpoint and, if there's disagreement, 'agree to disagree'. Have a good 'un.