2022/23 Frank Lampard

[andy4efc]

I don't agree with that in the slightest. You're not telling me that if the opportunity was there to swap Lampard for Guardiola today you wouldn't take it? You would, and you'd be right to. Lampard hasn't done anything to show that he's a good manager, literally nothing. That doesn't mean we should sack him, because obviously in the real world we wouldn't be getting Guardiola to replace him, and I don't think that Pereira or Martinez would necessarily improve us, but let's not pretend that nobody could possibly be doing a better job than Lampard is, they really could.

Based on the text you quoted, he didnt say he wouldn't?

He's right, there is nobody realistically available at the momoent who you would haev absolute faith would get these lot playing. A new manager doesnt suddenly see Demari Gray become consisent and have an end product, it doesnt take away DCL's injuries...

 

[Northeastblue]

Just skimming over your last 20 or so posts, you'd do well to get off that pedestal, sneering at fans.

Aren't moderators suited to at least resend to be neutral ? Are you you as snide with the doom mongers that slag off 'happy clappers' ?

 

[andy4efc]

I think some people forget just how much we have needed a rebuild and just how bad a state we were in. Just watched some of the goals from 2020-21.

Richarlison being Richy.
Bernard - not brilliant but tidy as a footballer.
Siggurddson - offered something and at least a goal threat.
Mina - now injured even more, never playing.
James Rodriguez - magical footballer.
Lucas Digne - Not as good defensively as Myko, but 10x going forward.

None of those play for the club anymore, Mina is contracted to us but does he play? really?. That's a huge scalp of players that were regulars no longer here just two years later. Of which all of them contributed.

It is huge change of personell. Add in that DCL cannot stay fit as well.

Whether it had been FL, Vitor Perreira or even Moyes coming back, whoever came in was going to need time after the change, especially since it appeared Richy was promised a move after another season (im sure he said something like this in an interview). Benitez sacked two of them off because he's a clueless pleb and another is involved in something that shouldn't be mentioned.

Whoever is in charge it is going to take time. Can't fix every issue in one summer, especailly when you're on a EPL leish despite other clubs able to spend freely with dodgy oil deals.

--

Lampard came in last season, tried to improve the football, recognised that it wasn't going to work despite a couple of early wins. He binned off his principles for the time being and scrapped out results where he could to get us out of a mess that wasn't of his making - It wasn't. What did benitez have, 1 win in 17?

This season, he laid down the defensive principles first. The defence is much better, the midfield is better, all be it not perfect but the attack is STILL struggling. Why? Because our main striker is always injured, and our best attacker in Richarlison got the move he was promised a year before. We've gone from Bernard, Richy, Siggurdson, James, DCL to choose from, to Gray, DCL, Gordon (who shows promise but is still a bit raw in my eyes), McNeill, Maupay. I dont believe for a second if the FFP wasn't a thing, we'd be near McNeill and Maupay.

 

[Lanolin]

Based on the text you quoted, he didnt say he wouldn't?

He's right, there is nobody realistically available at the momoent who you would haev absolute faith would get these lot playing. A new manager doesnt suddenly see Demari Gray become consisent and have an end product, it doesnt take away Dominic Calvert-Lewin's injuries...

I suppose it depends on how pedantic you want to be about the word 'available'. It's the same dance we have to go through every time someone suggests a change of manager or a replacement of a player etc; Person A says 'who do you replace him with', person B gives 25 possibilities, person A claims 12 wouldn't come, 8 would be too expensive, 4 aren't actually any better at all, and 1 doesn't exist. It's just a refusal to accept an opposing viewpoint.

The reality is that lots of people could probably do better than Lampard has done so far. Many of them would be available in the right circumstances. Again, that doesn't mean we should sack Lampard, (and of course there's virtually nobody that you could have 'absolute faith' in) but we should be honest that there's very little evidence of him actually being a good manager at this point.

 

[Colonel Getafe]

Gone by midnight on 3rd of January following three consecutive defeats.

Almost a certainty imo.

Absolutely untenable position if we get fewer than 3 points by then, and tbh even that would be a terrible return when you consider we've got Brighton and Wolves at home.

What a gigantic f up yet again but the board not to have acted during the World Cup, as if we didn't learn from keeping Benitez far beyond his expiry date.

So, you're saying we'll have let him stay in the job for the 4-5 weeks of world cup break, but then we'll sack him a week into the restart if we lose 3 games including City away? If the club were considering a change, surely they'd have done it at any point over the last month.

 

[andy4efc]

I suppose it depends on how pedantic you want to be about the word 'available'. It's the same dance we have to go through every time someone suggests a change of manager or a replacement of a player etc; Person A says 'who do you replace him with', person B gives 25 possibilities, person A claims 12 wouldn't come, 8 would be too expensive, 4 aren't actually any better at all, and 1 doesn't exist. It's just a refusal to accept an opposing viewpoint.

The reality is that lots of people could probably do better than Lampard has done so far. Many of them would be available in the right circumstances. Again, that doesn't mean we should sack Lampard, (and of course there's virtually nobody that you could have 'absolute faith' in) but we should be honest that there's very little evidence of him actually being a good manager at this point.

But in that sense you can say yeah well, there could be 10 mangers in the lower league who would have us higher up the table at present, but they're not considered in 'realistic' options as when on earth does that happen? When we talk about replacements we talk about realistic appointments of proven managers at the moment who could we realistically say has a proven track record that would come to Everton? There will be options for sure.

Nothing wrong with staying on the fence re: Lampard. I'm not fully sold, but I also dont judge him on the mess that Benitez left. I'm a big believer that any new manager needs time, particularly when you come into the absolute circus that is/was Everton football club last season. He's done things that have been good - getting rid of his philosophy last season to grind out whatever we could I see as a positive - just like stablising the defence this season and identifying hte midfield was incredibly weak physically and mentally (and technically). On the flip side, Our attack is pretty poor, but as ive stated in another that looking a the attackers we've lost in the past 18-24 months, it's no surprise. I was disappointed we didnt get an attacker but at least remained hopefully that Kudus was identified, Gapko was identified.

Im a big believer in time and if the club have created a plan on how to fix the mess, over a 2/3 year period, with Lampard, with Thelwell, then we should stick to the plan. at 5pm on a Saturday its easy to forget how bad we are, and get annoyed, and angry, and so forth, but when rational just gotta remember how bad of a state the club is in. Would be the same for any manager that came in.

I am not suggesting Lampard is in the level as Klippity Klopp, but it took him a good while to get them sorted and up to where they needed to be. Things take time and certainly not everything is fixed in one window.

I appreciate you didnt neccesserily mention half of those points, but just to add to the conversation.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Aren't moderators suited to at least resend to be neutral ? Are you you as snide with the doom mongers that slag off 'happy clappers' ?

It's not question time lad.

There's also no chance I will pay for you to post your opinion on here, and for me to be a robot.

I've ran this forum since February 2007 and moderators, moderate. An example of that is the post you've took issue with bizarrely, of me advising one member to avoid calling others idiots, and encouraging them to review their tone based on their last 20 posts when there's barely a post without a dig.

 

[Drico]

So, you're saying we'll have let him stay in the job for the 4-5 weeks of world cup break, but then we'll sack him a week into the restart if we lose 3 games including City away? If the club were considering a change, surely they'd have done it at any point over the last month.

You overestimate the competence and motivation of the board. They don't want to sack him because his results have disappointed them or because they want the best for the club. They will only remove him when he is no longer a shield for their inertia and incompetence to hide behind. They will only remove him...when they feel they have to to save their own skins. An objective observer with genuine will to improve the club might have looked on the World Cup break as an opportunity to make a change. But then, that objective observer might also have properly backed the manager and would feel guilt-free in making that change. But our overlords? They care only for their own skins. If there is a groundswell of support among the fanbase to change the manager, that's the earliest that they will act. The danger, of course, is that mood for change may happen too late to really do anything about it - and even if it was perfectly timed you could not be confident that these charlatans would pick an upgrade.

Essentially, we're about to witness a massive shitshow in 2023.

 

[Lanolin]

But in that sense you can say yeah well, there could be 10 mangers in the lower league who would have us higher up the table at present, but they're not considered in 'realistic' options as when on earth does that happen? When we talk about replacements we talk about realistic appointments of proven managers at the moment who could we realistically say has a proven track record that would come to Everton? There will be options for sure.

Nothing wrong with staying on the fence re: Lampard. I'm not fully sold, but I also dont judge him on the mess that Benitez left. I'm a big believer that any new manager needs time, particularly when you come into the absolute circus that is/was Everton football club last season. He's done things that have been good - getting rid of his philosophy last season to grind out whatever we could I see as a positive - just like stablising the defence this season and identifying hte midfield was incredibly weak physically and mentally (and technically). On the flip side, Our attack is pretty poor, but as ive stated in another that looking a the attackers we've lost in the past 18-24 months, it's no surprise. I was disappointed we didnt get an attacker but at least remained hopefully that Kudus was identified, Gapko was identified.

Im a big believer in time and if the club have created a plan on how to fix the mess, over a 2/3 year period, with Lampard, with Thelwell, then we should stick to the plan. at 5pm on a Saturday its easy to forget how bad we are, and get annoyed, and angry, and so forth, but when rational just gotta remember how bad of a state the club is in. Would be the same for any manager that came in.

I am not suggesting Lampard is in the level as Klippity Klopp, but it took him a good while to get them sorted and up to where they needed to be. Things take time and certainly not everything is fixed in one window.

I appreciate you didnt neccesserily mention half of those points, but just to add to the conversation.

I think that's going away from the point at hand though.

My point was that I don't agree with the idea that nobody could do better than Lampard has done so far. The clear inference there is that Lampard is getting the most that can reasonably expected out of what is available to him, and I simply don't believe that to be the case. Again, that doesn't mean I think he should be sacked, or that he's doing an abysmal job, or that he can't improve over time, just that I think it's pretty safe to say that another manager could probably have done better with the squad so far.

 

[Lanolin]

So, you're saying we'll have let him stay in the job for the 4-5 weeks of world cup break, but then we'll sack him a week into the restart if we lose 3 games including City away? If the club were considering a change, surely they'd have done it at any point over the last month.

There'll always be a tipping point won't there? Daft as it sounds, 3 games is quite a long time in football. 4 points from 7 games is pretty bad., 4 points from 10 games is really bad. If we say that they aren't sacking at him at that point then we go to 4 points from 13 games, if that's enough to see him sacked then you can logically say well why didn't we sack him 3 games ago etc.

I wouldn't say it was nailed on he'll be sacked if we lose the next 3 but it would hardly be a surprise and he couldn't really have any arguments if it happened.

 

[andy4efc]

I think that's going away from the point at hand though.

My point was that I don't agree with the idea that nobody could do better than Lampard has done so far. The clear inference there is that Lampard is getting the most that can reasonably expected out of what is available to him, and I simply don't believe that to be the case. Again, that doesn't mean I think he should be sacked, or that he's doing an abysmal job, or that he can't improve over time, just that I think it's pretty safe to say that another manager could probably have done better with the squad so far.

Yes, sorry. I agree that obviously there will be someone who could do better. It's identifying them and genreally when the manager circus begins, and its every year these days, the look "well, whos not got a club, whos got a good record, who's a name". We aren't in a position to go and take another clubs manager of those who have proven records. (Lampard is very much not proven as of yet).

It's almost as if whenever hte circus starts there is a fan-set criteria that has to be met. Realistically, if you have a manager who is good with X-style philosphy, and your director of football should identify them as fitting in that philsophy. We do things backwards as a club though, we appoint a manager and then hire a DOF, then when the manager circus starts, the DOF doesnt get a say.

So much goes into it, i think people get tunnel-sighted when it comes to WELL WHO WILL TAKE OVER? Who would do better? Like it has to be a big-name?

 

[Colonel Getafe]

I have some sympathy for him on this. You can bet he hates having to do this nonsense, but it's all part of the club's media PR guff. Some of those questions are toe-curling.

Hate listening to these pathetic cringeworthy interviews every week with stupid questions like "so, glad to be back at Goodison?" or "do you feel prepared for the game tomorrow?" - what on earth are these [supposed] JoUrNaLiStS expecting him to say. Almost as insufferable as when they come out with "how pleased with the 3 points are you?" or "are you hoping to build on this?". Absolute wastes of skin, the lot of 'em!

 

[GrandOldTeam]

The margins between relegation and mid table isn't much - get some actual decent attacking talent in and he'll be sound. Expectations are as low as I can ever recall but panic stations kick in if we go bottom three.

 

[PhilM]

The margins between relegation and mid table isn't much - get some actual decent attacking talent in and he'll be sound. Expectations are as low as I can ever recall but panic stations kick in if we go bottom three.

It's certainly fine margins. There's a lot of doom and gloom about because of our position, and to an extent I appreciate it, based on last year's fiasco.

But, if we'd turned one draw into a win, we would be sitting 14th; if it were two, we'd be 12th and seventh wouldn't be too far above.

Ifs and buts, some will say, however the point is that we're far from adrift. Other teams will go through ruts, and we've got to hope we gain momentum.

If we were to win two out of the next three, the mood would change significantly.

 

[Lanolin]

The margins between relegation and mid table isn't much - get some actual decent attacking talent in and he'll be sound. Expectations are as low as I can ever recall but panic stations kick in if we go bottom three.

It's certainly fine margins. There's a lot of doom and gloom about because of our position, and to an extent I appreciate it, based on last year's fiasco.

But, if we'd turned one draw into a win, we would be sitting 14th; if it were two, we'd be 12th and seventh wouldn't be too far above.

Ifs and buts, some will say, however the point is that we're far from adrift. Other teams will go through ruts, and we've got to hope we gain momentum.

If we were to win two out of the next three, the mood would change significantly.

I think part of why people are very negative at the moment is that expectations were really low for the season and yet we're arguably not even meeting them. I expected a tough season and would be happy with just staying out of trouble, but only winning 3 of the first 15, looking so toothless every week, and ending the first part of the season by losing badly twice to Bournemouth is probably worse than even I anticipated. Winning 2 of the next 3 would put a totally different perspective on things, just as losing all 3 would catapult us very much into panic territory. As I said above, 3 games can be a long time in football.