Ferguson

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RaleighBlue said:
Wilson wasn't on trial. Proof is not the measure of a trial.

If there is any reasonable question then it should have gone to trial by jury.
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I wasn't talking about any trial with that post, so I'm not sure what you think you're 'correcting'.

I was responding to JD's implication of murder. Of which no proof exists.
 

You are right that it's a broader issue than cops vs citizens.

It's class warfare. Pure and simple. People less fortunate (largely minorities) are more likely to be involved in crime due to the circumstance of their life, which results in stereotyping and prejudice, which entrenches their position as less fortunate. Truly exceptional people escape the cycle, but the cycle needs to be broken from the outside for the majority of these people. The health of our society depends on it.

This presents as racism in large part because race is easy to see - poor white people don't look terribly different than middle class white people.

This is an issue that must be addressed at a much higher level than expecting individuals to just 'pull themselves up and act right'. That's a cop out. Our system is broken in ways that institutionalize racism and discrimination. That must be addressed. Whether Michael Brown attacked Wilson or not - the underlying issue is the same.
 
wilson was never going to get convicted by any jury

the only reason it went before a grand jury was because of the riots and media coverage

without that then it wouldnt have even went to a grand jury. The prosecutor blatantly felt he had a pretty weak case
 

RaleighBlue said:
You are right that it's a broader issue than cops vs citizens.

It's class warfare. Pure and simple. People less fortunate (largely minorities) are more likely to be involved in crime due to the circumstance of their life, which results in stereotyping and prejudice, which entrenches their position as less fortunate. Truly exceptional people escape the cycle, but the cycle needs to be broken from the outside for the majority of these people. The health of our society depends on it.

This presents as racism in large part because race is easy to see - poor white people don't look terribly different than middle class white people.

This is an issue that must be addressed at a much higher level than expecting individuals to just 'pull themselves up and act right'. That's a cop out. Our system is broken in ways that institutionalize racism and discrimination. That must be addressed. Whether Michael Brown attacked Wilson or not - the underlying issue is the same.
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I don't think it's a cop-out, rather a potential starting point. I agree the system is broken, but how would you advocate fixing it?
 
Brennan said:
Been covered already. The officer had, according to the evidence, just been attacked in his police vehicle. He then rightly or wrongly (in hindsight) chose to pursue the attacker.

What followed is apparently that Brown charged towards the officer in question, and then he was shot again.

That's not murder, and there's not proof that one took place.
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Didn't use mace, didn't carry a tazer to stop it escalating.

Did try and shoot Brown at close quarters and only failed to kill him due to a gun that jammed; did pursue this 'threat on his life' that was running the other direction and away from him, did fail to wait for back up.

Wilson provoked the incident, was out of control when he couldn't handle the situation, then finally snapped and went on a shoot to kill chase.

End of story.
 
canuckblue said:
I don't think it's a cop-out, rather a potential starting point. I agree the system is broken, but how would you advocate fixing it?
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Step one for me would be the demilitarization of the police force. Drug law reform. And social outreach - we need to stop blaming people for being poor.

Edit - and it's not that personal responsibility isn't something to advocate. I just don't think we can expect people that are in these situations to fix it all for themselves. The system works against them.
 

RaleighBlue said:
Step one for me would be the demilitarization of the police force. Drug law reform. And social outreach - we need to stop blaming people for being poor.
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Drug law reform I can see, especially stuff like marijuana. Don't know how you could reform laws against the harder drugs, though, unless you see the government become the dealers by regulating them and controlling the sale. And by demilitarizing the police, what exactly do you mean by that? Surely not by taking away their guns.
 
After Ferguson Announcement, a Racial Divide Remains Over Views of Justice

Paul McLemore, the first African-American to become a New Jersey state trooper, was on the streets of Newark in 1967 when riots following a police beating of a black taxi driver left 26 dead. He spent decades as a civil rights lawyer and years as a municipal judge in Trenton. His wife and children have gone on to enjoy accomplished careers.

“Of course, there’s been a lot of progress” since Newark’s days of rage, he said in an interview on Tuesday. But asked whether a young black man today could find the justice that was believed to be absent in Newark 47 years ago, he gave a response that was starkly different.

“No, period,” he said. “There’s pervasive racism — white racism.”

For whites and blacks alike, that duality may be the takeaway from a grand jury’s decision not to indict Darren Wilson, a Ferguson, Mo., police officer, in the fatal shooting of Michael Brown, a young black man: Much has changed, and nothing has changed.

A nation with an African-American president and a significant, if struggling, black middle class remains as deeply divided about the justice system as it was decades ago. A Huffington Post-YouGov poll of 1,000 adults released this week found that 62 percent of African-Americans believed Officer Wilson was at fault in the shooting of Mr. Brown, while only 22 percent of whites took that position.

In 1992, a Washington Post-ABC News poll found that 92 percent of blacks — and 64 percent of whites — disagreed with the acquittal of the Los Angeles police officers involved in the videotaped beating of a black man, Rodney King.

“What’s striking is just how constant these attitudes have been,” said Carroll Doherty, the director of political research for the nonpartisan Pew Research Center in Washington.

In Pew polls, black mistrust of the police and courts is far more pervasive than it is toward other institutions. However, a Pew poll taken earlier this year suggests that African-Americans under age 40 — the demographic that made up most of the people who took to the streets in Ferguson in August — are much less likely than their elders to believe that racism is the main force blocking blacks’ advancement.

That whites and blacks disagree so deeply on the justice system, even as some other racial gulfs show signs of closing, is perhaps not as odd as it seems. Decades of changing laws and court decisions mean that the two races now work together, play sports together, attend school together. But they frequently go home to separate worlds where attitudes and experiences toward the police and courts not only are not shared, but are not even understood across the racial divide.

At the end of 2013, 3 percent of all black males of any age were imprisoned, compared with 0.5 percent of whites. In 2011, one in 15 African-American children had a parent in prison, compared with one in 111 white children.

Patricia J. Williams, a Columbia University law professor, said that the war on drugs disproportionately affected blacks — in California in 2011, a black man was 11 times more likely than a white to be jailed for a marijuana felony — and that three-strikes laws kept many in jail.

Beyond such disparities, “it’s the little things, like stop-and-frisk, like racial profiling and million-dollar block demarcations” — law enforcement tactics that saturate a high-crime area with police officers — that reinforce blacks’ negative attitudes toward the justice system, she said.

Kenny Wiley, 26, a black man who grew up in a white upper-middle-class suburb of Denver, is one who has seen both sides. The Ferguson shooting, he said, destroyed any notion that his race did not matter — that he could “opt out of the negative parts of blackness.”
“I grew up with a lot of economic privilege,” he said, “and still because of my race and my age and my gender, I’m still in certain situations perceived as a threat. When I walk down the street, they don’t see my SAT score, they see a black man.

“I don’t believe most white people are malicious. I think most white people are oblivious. And I think that there’s a lot of work to do.”

Some blacks take a different view. Brian Willingham, a church pastor and black police officer in Flint, Mich., said he was conflicted by the grand jury’s decision, but concluded that it was correct.

“I now realize that we who consider ourselves leaders in the black community can’t just be against racism. We have to also be against a portion of black culture that has become increasingly anti-authority and antisocial to a point of self-destruction,” he said. “This is an enemy we’ve yet to engage in the black community. But it’s a conversation I think we’re forced to have now.”
Blacks and whites who are friends found the case a delicate topic of conversation.

In Atlanta on Tuesday, Nneka Ekechukwu, 23, a South Carolina native of Nigerian descent, was having lunch with Denise Henderson, 45, a white friend and co-worker at an information-technology company. The two discussed the Ferguson case and the racial minefield it epitomizes, tiptoeing through some elements so as not to cause offense.

Ms. Henderson, who grew up in a heavily white part of Oklahoma, said she was concerned that the prosecutor in the Missouri case had brought too much of his own perspective to bear in bringing the evidence of the Brown shooting before the grand jury.

“I do think that so much of it was wrong,” she said. “But I do think it was wrong for Michael Brown to be fighting with a police officer.” Then she looked at her black friend. “But I feel like my saying that, I don’t know, is that an affront to you?” It was not, Ms. Ekechukwu said, but the same words might rankle her if they came from the lips of someone she suspected of prejudice.

For a person of color, she said, it is difficult not to view the Ferguson shooting as part of a continuum: the 2012 shooting of Trayvon Martin, an African-American man, by a white Florida man who was later acquitted of murder; the 2009 fatal shooting of an Oakland black man by a white transit officer who was found guilty of manslaughter instead of murder.

When she heard the recent news that a 12-year-old Cleveland boy had been shot by an officer while wielding a toy gun, Ms. Ekechukwu said, “my first question was, ‘Is he black?’ ”

He was.
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davek said:
Didn't use mace, didn't carry a tazer to stop it escalating.

Did try and shoot Brown at close quarters and only failed to kill him due to a gun that jammed; did pursue this 'threat on his life' that was running the other direction and away from him, did fail to wait for back up.

Wilson provoked the incident, was out of control when he couldn't handle the situation, then finally snapped and went on a shoot to kill chase.

End of story.
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provoked the incident is an interesting choice of words for trying to arrest someone who'd just committed a crime
 

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