Ferguson

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SerenityNigh said:
If these events were a one off circumstance, I don't think anyone would bat an eye. But Ferguson represents a much larger issue, circumstances that seem to repeat over and over...
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I think it's a simple one of respect of the law. Like it or not, all Police forces are in place to maintain law and order, whether they are allowed to use guns or not. The majority of people do not steal or cause other offences and so never come into these situations. After events such as this there are always two responses, law abiding people protest with posters etc and non law abiding loot shops, burn cars and businesses. The larger issue is not really about who gets shot as that is a potential outcome from a crime in countries that arm the police, it's really about how to raise people to be law abiding. If the Police themselves do not obey the law they should be prosecuted, if they do then they should be fully supported. The issue here is did the Policeman obey the law, yes or no. If he did then that is either the end of the matter or the law should be amended, if he didn't then he should be prosecuted. But in no circumstance should the colour of either party even be considered...............
 
RaleighBlue said:
Well, just spitballing - regulation over the use of SWAT and SWAT vehicles with oversight. Accountability for the police in situations like Ferguson in the summer. I would also suggest that police do not need to be anti-terrorism units and as such do not require military grade equipment. Police should be there to serve there communities, not to control them. People should not fear the police, they should trust them. And very few people I know, of any color, trust the police.

Harder drug reform? Treatment, not prosecution for users. Dealers of harder drugs can still be prosecuted, but users should be treated. Marijuana? Decriminalize it.
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About the only point I beg to differ in that, really. With the abundance of automatic and semiautomatic guns on the streets, even here in Canada, the cops need a level playing field in that regard. Or they'll be taking a revolver to a bazooka fight, to paraphrase.
 
canuckblue said:
About the only point I beg to differ in that, really. With the abundance of automatic and semiautomatic guns on the streets, even here in Canada, the cops need a level playing field in that regard. Or they'll be taking a revolver to a bazooka fight, to paraphrase.
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To an extent, perhaps. But how often do they really need armoured vehicles in situations in which something like the FBI or a more paramilitary organization could get involved?

But I'm ok with them having the equipment so long as there are regulations for its use and repercussions for it being used unnecessarily. The police should be social workers with a side of enforcement, rather than all enforcement all the time. That hardline disciplinarian approach has brought us to this place.
 
peteblue said:
I think it's a simple one of respect of the law. Like it or not, all Police forces are in place to maintain law and order, whether they are allowed to use guns or not. The majority of people do not steal or cause other offences and so never come into these situations. After events such as this there are always two responses, law abiding people protest with posters etc and non law abiding loot shops, burn cars and businesses. The larger issue is not really about who gets shot as that is a potential outcome from a crime in countries that arm the police, it's really about how to raise people to be law abiding. If the Police themselves do not obey the law they should be prosecuted, if they do then they should be fully supported. The issue here is did the Policeman obey the law, yes or no. If he did then that is either the end of the matter or the law should be amended, if he didn't then he should be prosecuted. But in no circumstance should the colour of either party even be considered...............
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Good points, but I think we should be careful not to oversimplify the situation. The issue with Ferguson is not Brown--he's simply the catalyst. These 7 people (all black) have been shot by police in the US since Michael Brown, all under dubious circumstances, some clearly not in violation of any law:

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/11/25/3596489/how-many-other-michael-browns/

Darren Hunt--Cosplay kid (22), shot in the back while running away from police. There was no known crime or threat, just a guy walking around in a ninja suit with a sword. [No charges filed by prosecutor against cops]

John Crawford--shot in back in a Walmart while shopping and talking on the phone. He was holding in his hands a BB gun that he picked up off the shelf while shopping. He was not threatening anyone. [Grand jury declines to charge the cops]

Akai Gurley--shot walking the stairs to/from an apartment in a NYC building. Police were patrolling the building but had no reason to believe that he was a threat, related to a crime, or committing a crime. [Police have admitted accidental shooting; no charges yet filed]

Tamir Rice-12 year old boy shot while playing with a toy gun at a park. Playing at a park; playing with a gun; being a 12-year old boy; each of these is legal. [no charges yet filed]

Tanesha Anderson--woman with mental illness was reported "disturbing the peace;" police show up to bring her to psychatric evaluation, struggle with her, and kill her trying to subdue her (without guns). [no charges yet filed; police dispute responsibility]

Ezell Ford--another person with mental illness, not much is known about this case. LA police have not released details of the incident, the autopsy, nor the name of the policeman that shot him. It is likely that there was a confrontation with the police, but their quietness over the details justifiably raises suspicion. [police unwilling to release details; no charges yet filed]

Omar Abrego--shot by LA police after a traffic stop for erratic driving. Again, very few details released by police and no autopsy released. Difficult to tell what the circumstances were. [police unwilling to release details; no charges yet filed]
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That doesn't include the kid (apparently mentally ill or emotionally disturbed) that was shot in St Louis the week following Brown's death for (allegedly) wielding a knife and threatening police when he was apprehended for stealing two drinks from a convenience store.

The issue with Ferguson is not whether Wilson was right or Brown was right (although this is not clear to me). The issue is that cops uses excessive force, too often lethal, putting citizens at risk disproportionate to the crime committed (if ever a crime was committed to begin), and are rarely, if ever, responsible for their actions. And this happens disproportionately by white cops against black men. Why should not black communities, even the nation at large, be appalled by this? The system always protects cops, but not always citizens, especially if they're black.
 
canuckblue said:
About the only point I beg to differ in that, really. With the abundance of automatic and semiautomatic guns on the streets, even here in Canada, the cops need a level playing field in that regard. Or they'll be taking a revolver to a bazooka fight, to paraphrase.
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To me, having the ability to use lethal force is quite distinct from having proper training and knowing how and when to use lethal force. I'm not aware of any American arguing that cops shouldn't have guns. My concern is that too often cops have guns and aren't aware that there are other options.
 

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