Ferguson

[RaleighBlue]

http://gawker.com/surveillance-video-shows-moments-before-police-killed-b-1663417341

Follow up on the cosplayer story.

 

[moyeslovechild]

Officer was trying to arrest him, gave chase, hoodlum truned back and charged again, officer shot him. Adrenalines pumping, hes already dazed from the first attack. Justified imo

spot on

In my opinion he had a reasonable belief that once Brown got to him (after turning back and charging), he would be in danger given the previous scuffle with the gun and the fact Brown's size meant he could overwhelm him. Then u factor in that this is happening in real time with blood rushing and its not that ridiculous the officer reacted the way he did.

He probably could have dealt with it better but in terms of 'did he have a fear he was in danger of serious harm', i think he did. And once Brown starts charging at him then I think distance doesnt mean that much because the thought of 'i'm going to be in trouble when he reaches me' is still present

 

[Brennan]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/25/st-louis-grand-jury_n_6216464.html

St. Louis Blues: An Old Refrain In Grand Jury Decision


WASHINGTON -- If you know St. Louis, or Missouri for that matter, you know that the family of Michael Brown had no chance, and that police Officer Darren Wilson would go free.

St. Louis is a lovely place, but legally it can be a toxic police mixture of the Midwestern love of social order and Border State race-based severity.

The city is in some ways on the most tremulous fault line in the history of race in America: The home of W.C. Handy and the blues, of Chuck Berry and rock 'n roll, of the Dred Scott court decision on runaway slaves.

Not surprisingly, the Missouri state legislature has chosen repeatedly to ignore a landmark U.S. Supreme Court decision of 1985, which held that a police officer cannot use lethal force against a fleeing suspect unless the officer has reason to believe the suspect is armed and an immediate threat to public order.

Instead, a police officer in Missouri can shoot a person the officer believes to be a fleeing felon. Period. Not to mention that the officer can shoot one who is moving toward him in a threatening manner.

So the real complaint in Missouri on Monday night should not really be with the county prosecutor, however defensive and cloying he may have been in announcing the grand jury's failure to indict the officer who shot the teenager.

It is with Missouri, and America, for thumbs-on-the-scale state laws that the federal government -- from Abraham Lincoln forward -- has only partly ameliorated.

St. Louis is emblematic of the glory and the tragedy of the racial history of which this case is only the latest example. The city was a licentious, anything-goes river town in which the slave trade flourished, and was run in later years by German-American burghers and scions of the slave-holding South who wanted to preserve order, and the Old Order.

At Mardi Gras in St. Louis, there are still clubs severely limited, shall we say, in racial terms.

Some laws are a holdover from those days. They made it easy for the grand jury to return a "no true bill" -- that is, no indictment on any charges -- against Wilson.

Let's face it: In St. Louis, everyone knows who most of the suspected fleeing felons are. They are black. They are from the north side of St. Louis and similar places. It is the way things have worked since the blues began, and barbecue became a thing, and Michael Brown supposedly swiped some cigars. It was the reported theft of them that made the teen a suspected felon and that sealed his fate.

And let's make no mistake: St. Louis is as American, for better and for worse, as a city can get.

Most of that post is fine, but the bolded bit is a joke.

 

[DanEFC92]

spot on

In my opinion he had a reasonable belief that once Brown got to him (after turning back and charging), he would be in danger given the previous scuffle with the gun and the fact Brown's size meant he could overwhelm him. Then u factor in that this is happening in real time with blood rushing and its not that ridiculous the officer reacted the way he did.

He probably could have dealt with it better but in terms of 'did he have a fear he was in danger of serious harm', i think he did.

Size keeps being mentioned. Wilson was 6'4", 210ish lbs himself.

 

[moyeslovechild]

Size keeps being mentioned. Wilson was 6'4", 210ish lbs himself.

He was someone that posed a physical threat to the officer was the point. If it was a bloke/woman who weighed a buck 20 then there would be questions over whether the officer can put the gun away and physically restrain him

Although i cant remember if there was a question of whether there was possibly a belief brown was armed or not?

 

[L4Everton]

How do you know it was a disproportionate reaction ? Were you there ?

I'll summarise what happened based on the evidence accepted by the Grand Jury:

- Officer tries to talk to Brown
- Brown acts in a confrontational manner
- Officer cuts across Brown's path with police car to get him to stop
- Brown reaches into police car and starts scrapping with Officer
- Officer tries to shoot brown, grazes his hand. DNA evidence and other evidence shows Brown almost certainly was inside the car
- Officer chases after Brown

What happened next is a little less certain, with many of the witness statements being unreliable. But:

"Mr McCulloch said other witnesses, African Americans who had not spoken out publicly, consistently said Mr Brown had threatened the officer."

It seems likely that Brown charged towards the officer at some point and was then shot dead.

Now, in the heat of the moment, when a man has just reached inside your car as a police officer and then moments later aggressively moves towards you, is it outrageous for you to shoot the man ?

Football fans stormed the gates and pushed through the tunnel.
They later stole from the dead bodies of the fellow fans around them.
Attacked police along the way like a blood crazed mob.

Hell of a side you have picked right there sir.

 

[BBleck]

A cop killed a guy after the guy assaulted the cop. Was the force warranted? A grand jury, who only need to be convinced of the barest basis for the case to continue, found that there was not enough evidence for the case to continue.

Oh, and it so happens that the cop was white and the guy was black. Must be racism. Oh wait, there is no evidence that race played any part in this altercation at all. Just the casual racism that imputes white people are racist against black people. Give me a break. The issue here is whether there was excessive force.

 

[L4Everton]

It can be difficult to make 'good' decisions when you've just had somebody trying to grab for your gun and possibly end your life. It's very easy to sit on an internet forum and talk in hindsight about officer training.

It took 4 posts (?) for 'reached inside the car' to get to 'grab your gun and possibly end your life'. The politics of fear, the politics of blame, the politics of when all else fails dream up an excuse for why the black person had to die - any reason no matter how far fetched will do.

Sickening.

 

[johnnydawg68]

Most of that post is fine, but the bolded bit is a joke. If he hadn't acted like a jerk and put his hands on a police officer he almost certainly wouldn't have been killed. The only thing stealing did was open the door to the events which followed. It was his choice to then fan the flames.

Other than Darren Wilson's testimony how do you know he did? Even so, if he did the first shot may have been justified, the rest were not. Wilson could have called for immediate backup. Ferguson is not that big, another 2-3 patrol cars could have been there in minutes and apprehended Brown. Wilson made a conscious decision to get out of the car and fire his weapon at a fleeing suspect on his own. Why? For what purpose? If the suspect was running away he was no longer in danger. He chose to use his weapon with forethought to kill Michael Brown.

There's a word for that.

 

[L4Everton]

A cop killed a guy after the guy assaulted the cop.

"were you there?"

Are you expecting me to believe that a Black adolescent attacked a white officer? Anywhere? Then before the officer pulled his gun ran far enough away to make it difficult to shoot the adolescent repeatedly? I could understand if the officer was trying to question the young adult to the tune of 'were you just in that shop, the owner says some black kid just stole' ...'you saying we all look alike, i'm calling Jesse...'

Yeah, cops huh. Jesus in disguise.

 

[L4Everton]

Other than Darren Wilson's testimony how do you know he did? Even so, if he did the first shot may have been justified, the rest were not. Wilson could have called for immediate backup. Ferguson is not that big, another 2-3 patrol cars could have been there in minutes and apprehended Brown. Wilson made a conscious decision to get out of the car and fire his weapon at a fleeing suspect on his own. Why? For what purpose? If the suspect was running away he was no longer in danger. He chose to use his weapon with forethought to kill Michael Brown.

There's a word for that.

I have two words for it - EXTREME PREJUDICE

 

[BBleck]

"were you there?"

Are you expecting me to believe that a Black adolescent attacked a white officer? Anywhere? Then before the officer pulled his gun ran far enough away to make it difficult to shoot the adolescent repeatedly? I could understand if the officer was trying to question the young adult to the tune of 'were you just in that shop, the owner says some black kid just stole' ...'you saying we all look alike, i'm calling Jesse...'

Yeah, cops huh. Jesus in disguise.

What evidence do you have that race was a factor?

Was I there? No, and neither were you. What's your point?

 

[moyeslovechild]

Wilson made a conscious decision to get out of the car and fire his weapon at a fleeing suspect

This is where witness testimony is inconsistent. Acc. to the grand jury there are numerous witnesses that say Wilson got out of the car told the suspect to stop and only fired when he turned around and started coming towards him, even someone heard on a video on the scene of the shooting describes that scenario.

 

[L4Everton]

What evidence do you have that race was a factor?

Was I there? No, and neither were you. What's your point?

Evidence..... evidence.... evidence..... hmmmm.......

Always difficult getting both sides of the story when one side has shot dead the other. Seems a fact an awful lot have difficulty recognising. Black though - deserved it.

 

[sageyefc]

Evidence..... evidence.... evidence..... hmmmm.......

Always difficult getting both sides of the story when one side has shot dead the other. Seems a fact an awful lot have difficulty recognising. Black though - deserved it.

Theres the forensic evidence and witness evidence to support the officers story though