Everton and Martinez are to blame should Lukaku leave

[whiteshadow]

I don't get the whole 'I take it as a whole'. If Im counting this right, he has 9 wins total in the league this season. 5 away, 4 home. Against the mighty Southampton, Newcastle, West Brom, Stoke and Villa. Where is this idea that we are a dominating away team coming from?

Because we've lost less times away from home than any other team in the Premier League. Have had a lot of draws too though but still it's a good away record, relatively.

 

[The Esk]

Whilst I agree the norm is short tenures, the total rebuilding job that Martinez and Bill signed up is more than a three year plan, surely? There is no way it's anything less than a 5 year plan. If I was given 5 years to have a final version ready, judging me on a select few parameters after 2 2/3 seems unfair, but that might be me.

In any event...

I totally understand that the main indicator of a sides ability to win games is the league table but surely you concede that the previous financial model would mean slow progress?

Buy young/inexperienced, raw players, develop them, selling them, reinvesting. We've seen its taken 3 years to develop Rom, just one player. It's a very slow progression when you've no money or are using sales to generate money

And its been a point of many debate, agreeing to disagree is obviously fine, but I cant understand how progression cannot be seen.

Barkley?
Stones?
Lukaku?
Deulofeu?
Funes Mori?

All visibly progessing as the season(s) have progressed.

2 cup semi finals? When was the last time we did that? Surely that's progression?

The big test for RM is this summer. We've now just a few spots left to fill and bolster - GK, CB, CF. He has to get them playing consistently and the pressure increases because of the new financial model. What hasn't been said is that the new financial model allows him to bring in experienced, proven winners who can chaperone these younger, inexperienced players on the pitch.

I love Jags, Baines, Coleman... But they've won nothing. We need players who have won titles, and we'll finally be able to bring those players in this summer.

If he brings those players in this summer and by Christmas he's floundering then get shut. Until then, for me and others, he deserves a chance to continue the progression albeit on a shorter leash.

I think this is a fair post, and I appreciate the tone of the response - we should all be able to disagree without resorting to characterisation of the poster.

As I've said on many occasions, going back to May last year when I first suggested Martinez should go, he does possess skills and qualities, it would be churlish in the extreme to suggest he doesn't. He has a good eye for a player and without doubt several players have developed under his tutelage.

My contention has always been though that he does not possess all the qualities and skills necessary to take us where we aspire and frankly ought to be given what he has at his disposal.

As stated previously his weaknesses in my opinion are defence, tactical naivety, an inability to change the course of a game when the opposition are on the front foot, and an inability to create the positive mind set and mental strength in players that is required in a truly competitive side.

The results of his failings manifest themselves in performances and results on the pitch (as evidenced in the last two seasons), unequal and irregular progression of individuals, a lack of mental strength on the pitch, and I'm afraid to say an environment which encourages our best players to look elsewhere and inevitably impact our ability to recruit the very best going forward.

Thus Martinez represents a very high risk strategy moving forward if Everton are to fulfill their ambitions, match their potential and actually progress in a very competitive environment which can only get more competitive in the future as a result of the enormous amount of money in the PL.

Therefore there is only one option available to the Board at the end of the season. Recruit a proven management team with experience of winning, European experience and handling the highest profile players in the business.

That may seem harsh, it may not be viewed as the "Everton" way (although few were as ruthless as John Moores when necessary) but with the amount of capital invested and to be invested, and the potential rewards and opportunities there really is no option.

 

[silent bob]

I think this is a fair post, and I appreciate the tone of the response - we should all be able to disagree without resorting to characterisation of the poster.

As I've said on many occasions, going back to May last year when I first suggested Martinez should go, he does possess skills and qualities, it would be churlish in the extreme to suggest he doesn't. He has a good eye for a player and without doubt several players have developed under his tutelage.

My contention has always been though that he does not possess all the qualities and skills necessary to take us where we aspire and frankly ought to be given what he has at his disposal.

As stated previously his weaknesses in my opinion are defence, tactical naivety, an inability to change the course of a game when the opposition are on the front foot, and an inability to create the positive mind set and mental strength in players that is required in a truly competitive side.

The results of his failings manifest themselves in performances and results on the pitch (as evidenced in the last two seasons), unequal and irregular progression of individuals, a lack of mental strength on the pitch, and I'm afraid to say an environment which encourages our best players to look elsewhere and inevitably impact our ability to recruit the very best going forward.

Thus Martinez represents a very high risk strategy moving forward if Everton are to fulfill their ambitions, match their potential and actually progress in a very competitive environment which can only get more competitive in the future as a result of the enormous amount of money in the PL.

Therefore there is only one option available to the Board at the end of the season. Recruit a proven management team with experience of winning, European experience and handling the highest profile players in the business.

That may seem harsh, it may not be viewed as the "Everton" way (although few were as ruthless as John Moores when necessary) but with the amount of capital invested and to be invested, and the potential rewards there really is no option.

And we`re back.

 

[JAYTALITY]

Martinez should give him the captains armband and free access to his wife.

 

[TheHumbleEgg]

12th or 5th. Not arsed.

*shakes head

 

[Khalekan]

Should we extend the same loyalties to failing players as you are suggesting to failing managers?

Indeed.

We should have extended that same loyalty to Mike Walker and allowed him to work toward his three or five year plan.

And never mind the fact we would have arrived there via the Championship

In no walk of life, be it commerce or sport, will a manager be afforded the luxury and time to see out a "five year plan" if those above him deem the plan to be defective and their business being damaged.

 

[willo30]

I don't get all this rebuilding lark. It's not as if he took over a 3rd division side we were 6th best in the PL.
Think the rebuilding card has become tiresome now and is just used now to distract from how poor he actually is.

 

[FisherEFC]

I don't get all this rebuilding lark. It's not as if he took over a 3rd division side we were 6th best in the PL.
Think the rebuilding card has become tiresome now and is just used now to distract from how poor he actually is.

Wouldn't bother arguing it mate, we'll have the last laugh when Moshiri hooks him, I'll give it another season maximum. Just hope he doesn't do too much long term damage.

 

[People75]

I think Martinez poor defence management, will make Lukaku leave. Simple as that

 

[bluewally]

I don't get all this rebuilding lark. It's not as if he took over a 3rd division side we were 6th best in the PL.
Think the rebuilding card has become tiresome now and is just used now to distract from how poor he actually is.

72 points
2 Cup runs
Judged against higher standard than moyes
Fumeaggedon
Pffft
*sigh*

 

[bluewally]

Is this the Martinez thread now?

 

[mkrudden]

I think this is a fair post, and I appreciate the tone of the response - we should all be able to disagree without resorting to characterisation of the poster.

As I've said on many occasions, going back to May last year when I first suggested Martinez should go, he does possess skills and qualities, it would be churlish in the extreme to suggest he doesn't. He has a good eye for a player and without doubt several players have developed under his tutelage.

My contention has always been though that he does not possess all the qualities and skills necessary to take us where we aspire and frankly ought to be given what he has at his disposal.

As stated previously his weaknesses in my opinion are defence, tactical naivety, an inability to change the course of a game when the opposition are on the front foot, and an inability to create the positive mind set and mental strength in players that is required in a truly competitive side.

The results of his failings manifest themselves in performances and results on the pitch (as evidenced in the last two seasons), unequal and irregular progression of individuals, a lack of mental strength on the pitch, and I'm afraid to say an environment which encourages our best players to look elsewhere and inevitably impact our ability to recruit the very best going forward.

Thus Martinez represents a very high risk strategy moving forward if Everton are to fulfill their ambitions, match their potential and actually progress in a very competitive environment which can only get more competitive in the future as a result of the enormous amount of money in the PL.

Therefore there is only one option available to the Board at the end of the season. Recruit a proven management team with experience of winning, European experience and handling the highest profile players in the business.

That may seem harsh, it may not be viewed as the "Everton" way (although few were as ruthless as John Moores when necessary) but with the amount of capital invested and to be invested, and the potential rewards and opportunities there really is no option.

There isn't a lot I can argue with there. I totally appreciate and understand those who share your views.

The only thing I don't understand totally is the assertion that the only way we can progress is to bin him.

I believe with proper investment (which we now have), Martinez has the abilities to build a side which play expressive, dynamic football which will get us challenging consistently.

Its now over to him to prove me right (or wrong).

 

[The Esk]

I believe with proper investment (which we now have), Martinez has the abilities to build a side which play expressive, dynamic football which will get us challenging consistently.

Mate, it all boils down to this, either one believes Martinez has the abilities or not.

Some believe he has, others believe he hasn't.

If he proves me wrong I'll be delighted, although I'm not expecting such an outcome.

Anyway at 4pm tomorrow we'll all be blues hoping for 3 points away at United!

 

[mkrudden]

Mate, it all boils down to this, either one believes Martinez has the abilities or not.

Some believe he has, others believe he hasn't.

If he proves me wrong I'll be delighted, although I'm not expecting such an outcome.

Anyway at 4pm tomorrow we'll all be blues hoping for 3 points away at United!

Absolutely.
And you're right, it's all good debate/opinions.

 

[Dario Terracotta]

Mate, it all boils down to this, either one believes Martinez has the abilities or not.

Some believe he has, others believe he hasn't.

If he proves me wrong I'll be delighted, although I'm not expecting such an outcome.

Anyway at 4pm tomorrow we'll all be blues hoping for 3 points away at United!

The one thing in my mind that he has given me as a blue mate is the feeling that we "can" beat anyone on our day for all his many misgivings,with all of Moyes attributes I never really had that feeling.