Everton and Martinez are to blame should Lukaku leave

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Ihaters said:
Agree with the highlighted one, although its mentioned, I don't think you can underplay how important Martinez was in getting Lukaku in the first place.. but disagree with the others..

Lukaku scores as many as he does because he's Lukaku, he could of been under Moyes and he would still score for fun

He's grown because he's Lukaku and quite simply, his scoring is no different than it always was and his first touch, back to goal and hold up play was always something that were bad enough he had to improve, this again would be similar under any manager.

Finally I think he may stay longer with a top 4 spot, than finishing embarrassingly in the bottom half again..
From Chelsea to Wigan to Everton followed by us plummeting down the league, its not exactly a great CV from a club perspective. Doesn't appear to be much difference between us currently and Wigan back then tbh, he won't want to be back there in relegation dogfights when he could be trying to conquer the Champions League would he?

Also your opinions of the reasons behind things are not facts...

That being said, there are an awful lot of guesses in that original post being portrayed inaccurately as facts imo.
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Until he drained the life out of him. Proven track record of diminishing returns from his strikers.
 

davek said:
...so, just to make it clear then: any new manager coming in would get the best squad we've had for years and then a fortune on top to see if he could get us into the CL spots (because you cant get in there before qualifying)? Ok, got it.

...but hold on, if he was going to be better than Martinez, and CL qualification should be possible with the squad we have now, why would he need to restructure it and spend out more on it next season?

It's a puzzler, isn't it.
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Guess it depends if you want to play the exact same system.. If you want a different system, you may want someone more mobile than Barry, or a left winger, or sell Barkley and get someone who can assist more goals, may want to play Deulofeu and bench Lennon, may want to only play one defensive midfielder in a team that offers no defence with 2, freeing up room another forward.. who knows what the new guy would want?

That a new manager would want to buy players is in no way an indictment of the quality of a current squad though.. SAF bought players every year even though they won the league.
 
ilikecheese said:
Until he drained the life out of him. Proven track record of diminishing returns from his strikers.
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Not at all.

Beattie was just really rubbish
AJ never stopped scoring, he just stopped getting picked
Yakubu got a career ender
We finished 4th with Marcus Bent
He never had a 28million pound striker
 
The Esk said:
The reason we won't qualify for the CL as is, is because of the quality of management and coaching. Across the football industry it is commonly accepted that this squad should be competing for a CL place.

That doesn't mean though that the squad cannot be strengthened and restructured does it? In doing so, perhaps we can then set our sights on the Premier League, and regular progress in the CL through to the knock-out stages at least.

That should be our ambition - but to do so we need funding, a manager and coaching team capable of such, and a squad capable of such.

It appears we will have the backing, it is apparent we do not have the management or coaching team and we have a squad capable of competing for CL but which would benefit hugely from further investment.

Not in the slightest bit puzzling, Dave.
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How is it not puzzling when you make a statement like that? You're not explaining this (either that or I'm a bit dense).

You say the reason we cant qualify for the CL is because we lack the quality of management and coaching. That the squad was there to do that. So what needs restructuring if it's just the coaching? And why do we need to waste money strengthening?

Basically you want to ride two horses here: you want to say that martinez is not good enough to achieve a CL spot and that other coaches would have been; but then you're saying this next coach would require additional funds and to restructure the squad.

There's no logic in this.
 

Tree13 said:
No-one in their right mind would accept finishing 17th if we won a trophy. No-one. Tenth maybe, but 17th? Don't be ridiculous - why on Earth do you think so many people are still moaning!
.
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Dont agree on that, I would take 17th and a FA cup any time, however if we do win the cup Martinez still has to be sacked as soon as the season is over.
 
I can't help feel we have missed a trick this season. The one season where this club and team had a real genuinely real opportunity to make Champions League. Not because the squad is the finished article or anything but the form of the teams normally above us being so bad. We have really blown a golden chance.

And little Leicester whose squad cost about 10 bob, are romping the league laughing at everyone.
 
You can't help the irony of it, that when questioned today about lukaku wanting to play in the champions league, Martinez says at Everton we have aspirations to be be in the best competitions. Sadly that is all it is...aspirations as under Martinez we will never achieve champions league football and hence why lukaku wants to leave.
 
Ihaters said:
Guess it depends if you want to play the exact same system.. If you want a different system, you may want someone more mobile than Barry, or a left winger, or sell Barkley and get someone who can assist more goals, may want to play Deulofeu and bench Lennon, may want to only play one defensive midfielder in a team that offers no defence with 2, freeing up room another forward.. who knows what the new guy would want?

That a new manager would want to buy players is in no way an indictment of the quality of a current squad though.. SAF bought players every year even though they won the league.
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But that makes little sense to me. We're scoring goals by the bucket loads and the problem is not systemic it's all about defenders doing proper defending, and, as we're told umpteen times per day, we have international defenders capable of doing it. So where would be the requirement for more personnel and restructuring?
 

davek said:
How is it not puzzling when you make a statement like that? You're not explaining this (either that or I'm a bit dense).

You say the reason we cant qualify for the CL is because we lack the quality of management and coaching. That the squad was there to do that. So what needs restructuring if it's just the coaching? And why do we need to waste money strengthening?

Basically you want to ride two horses here: you want to say that martinez is not good enough to achieve a CL spot and that other coaches would have been; but then you're saying this next coach would require additional funds and to restructure the squad.

There's no logic in this.
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For the avoidance of doubt - this squad, this year should have attained CL qualification. The fact we haven't is down to the management and coaching of players.

Beyond this season, even if we had qualified for the CL, ie this summer the squad needs restructuring (i) to demonstrate to Lukaku, Del, Stones and Barkley the extent of our ambition (ii) to sustain CL qualification, higher placing in the Premier League, and (iii) build for competing for the PL title and CL knock out stage status in future years.

Totally logical.
 
davek said:
It's perfectly understandable mate. We've all been mesmerised by Martinez to think we never won stuff for years before he came. Everyone knows we won titles and cups and played in the CL every season. No wonder Lukaku is hoping that a high quality "management and coaching team with actual winning experience" will come in and turn back the clock to our glory days before Martinez arrived.
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But he had us in 5th then improved the squad. Why haven't we improved on 5th/72pts then?

You're not saying the 72pts was a fluke now are you?
 
MoutsGoat said:
Not at all.

Beattie was just really rubbish
AJ never stopped scoring, he just stopped getting picked
Yakubu got a career ender
We finished 4th with Marcus Bent
He never had a 28million pound striker
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AJ- 11 then 6 in three less league games.
Yak- Never matched his first season...injury for sure
Bent-6 then 1
Beattie-10 then 2
Saha-13, 7, 1
Jelavic-9 (in 13), 7 (in 37)
 
toffeejack said:
think it's too early to write the season off. If he wins us the FA Cup, will everyone still moan? - the majority were saying i'd accept us finishing 17th if we won a trophy. We haven't regressed from last season, that's for sure, but that's not really an achievement.

If we're looking purely league wise, results and the table would suggest we have gone backwards, but i do firmly believe based on performances and what we've deserved, we have bridged the gap on potential champions league/title contenders. The fact that the top clubs have got weaker has played it's part, but i think most of our inconsistencies have come about because of a young squad ... although spurs have achieved better with their highest aged regular being 28.

The fact leicester and spurs, teams with squads no better than ours, are challenging for the title is what brings the most frustration and understandably so. Based on performances, we should be up there with them really, just silly little cock-ups and lack of concentration has deserted us all season. In the short term, would a different manager get more success? Undoubtedly. Would they be as interested in setting us up for a long and bright future? probably not.
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You sound like Martinez. We can't defend that's what we deserve by sitting in the 12th place.

The fact is we are 12th and any sucess in the league is based on points not finding excuses saying we could be this we could be that.

Performances are better than points? No it is not. It was a ridicious comment by Martinez. He spouts a lot of crap and fans are not happy. We ain't idiots.
 

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