Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Bruce Wayne]

He's sort of right though in that you start from WTO terms as a baseline and renegotiate from there. Countries don't necessarily want to trade on WTO terms, which is why they will make alternative trade deals.

Hardly a nail in the coffin for Farage that.

The better question is: 'how long are you expecting the UK to take to negotiate the trade deals (effectively trading on WTO terms) and what industries/sectors will you protect and which ones will have to take a hit?'

It's still an infantile perspective on world trade though as it seems to portray trade as impossible unless you have a trade deal, after which the floodgates open and the money rolls in. Trade deals don't allow trade, they just make it easier or more cost efficient. I was trading with the US this week and neither the EU or Britain has a trade deal with the US. What Farage has proved very effective at is dumbing down international relations whilst at the same time tickling the pride of people who don't really understand it but want Britain (and by proxy themselves) to feel proud that 'we're' doing great things in some way.

You sense the reality of the matter is irrelevant for these folk, as indeed it is irrelevant for Joe, as all that matters is 'we' as an individual nation rather than as a part of a wider collective, are 'winning'. It's not dissimilar to the Olympics affecting your park run puffers or the World Cup your Sunday League cloggers.

 

[Jebus_lives]

It's still an infantile perspective on world trade though as it seems to portray trade as impossible unless you have a trade deal, after which the floodgates open and the money rolls in. Trade deals don't allow trade, they just make it easier or more cost efficient. I was trading with the US this week and neither the EU or Britain has a trade deal with the US. What Farage has proved very effective at is dumbing down international relations whilst at the same time tickling the pride of people who don't really understand it but want Britain (and by proxy themselves) to feel proud that 'we're' doing great things in some way.

You sense the reality of the matter is irrelevant for these folk, as indeed it is irrelevant for Joe, as all that matters is 'we' as an individual nation rather than as a part of a wider collective, are 'winning'. It's not dissimilar to the Olympics affecting your park run puffers or the World Cup your Sunday League cloggers.

I suppose the point is that the reality of the position from both is flawed.

Farage for the reasons you have listed above and a 'its all so simple' approach and those holding the exchange up as a coup de grace to Farage on a specific point that he can actually easily dismiss.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I suppose the point is that the reality of the position from both is flawed.

Farage for the reasons you have listed above and a 'its all so simple' approach and those holding the exchange up as a coup de grace to Farage on a specific point that he can actually easily dismiss.

I suppose the irony is, as this recent analysis of UK-Canada trade so aptly shows, trade in goods is still largely reliant upon proximity, whereas trade in services is not, which is one of the reasons why global trade in services is growing faster than global trade in goods. Yet for Joe, and you suspect other Farage fans, when they talk of trading with the world, the kind of work that doesn't involve getting your hands dirty (ie services) is not what they're thinking of. I mean I've spent the last week at various parts of the Toyota ecosystem in Lexington, and even the biggest Toyota plant in the world primarily services the domestic market. I don't think they export a great deal, and neither do the suppliers that have built up around them. Indeed, there's a reason so many have based themselves in that area, and it's the proximity to Toyota. That works for TMMK because the domestic market in the States is huge. Plants in the UK could do likewise when they had access to the full EU market, but just selling to the UK alone is probably not sufficient to sustain their operations.

Of course, none of this is ever communicated by Farage, and indeed this kind of nuance is seldom sought by fans of Farage, but they should perhaps not be surprised when accusations of simplicity of thought are chucked their way.

 

[JammyP]

Joey a profile in politics:

• Angry about Anti Semitism.
• Angry about MPs having second jobs.
• Angry about MPs doing nothing for their money.
• Angry about undermining Democracy and Rule of Law
• Angry about people wanting to sell off the NHS
• Angry about MPs lying
• Angry about people wanting to break up Unions
• Angry about a do as I say not do as I do attitude

Unless it's Nigel Farage, then we can ignore it all...

It's the company Farage keeps which tells you what you need to know

 

[Jebus_lives]

It's the company Farage keeps which tells you what you need to know

Here he is listening like a school boy in the head masters office to the champion of Facists, Racists and white supremacists Steve Bannon.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

Here he is listening like a school boy in the head masters office to the champion of Facists, Racists and white supremacists Steve Bannon.

It reminds him of his youth, life was so black and white!

 

[summerisle]

Can't wait for the Peasant's revolt re-anactment, with a commensurate ending.

 

[Frang]

Idont know them personally..... but if they have sent the forms in late.......

that was my take on it.. whod have thought needless moaning from remoaners !

 

[Bruce Wayne]

that was my take on it.. whod have thought needless moaning from remoaners !

It's the weekend, you can take some time off.

 

[dublinbluenose]

Happy Europe day everyone

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I thought this might interest those who wheel out 'democracy' at every opportunity.

Populism appeals to the “will of people” but is actually profoundly undemocratic. Democracy is about the negotiation of competing interests, the balancing of different values. Populism, in contrast, is a kind of mob rule. Where there is complexity, it offers simple solutions. Instead of seeking common ground, it looks to exaggerate the differences between them and us. The unquestioned righteousness of its own cause and means to its ends leads to the demonization of those it opposes.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/europe-crisis-populism_b_7812252

 

[abelard]

I thought this might interest those who wheel out 'democracy' at every opportunity.



https://www.huffpost.com/entry/europe-crisis-populism_b_7812252

Funny though how in Britain, the Party proposing a compromise solution between the two sides based on the negotiation of competing interests, and the balancing of different values, is considered the demagogic populist party, whereas the parties offering simple solutions (ie: Bollocks to Brexit) where there is complexity are depicted as the mature and responsible ones.

What steps to negotiate competing interests, or to balance different values, have you taken so far in your approach to Brexit, Bruce?

So far I just see a lot of 'the unquestioned righteousness of its own cause'

'Populism', in practice, is really just a self-serving term used to reinforce the identity politics of a class of people whose actual politics have consistently failed over the past fifteen years or so.

Or course, if we opt for a more precise and meaningful definition - Cas Mudde's, for instance - then we would have to concede that the most careful and sophisticated research demonstrates that the populists are essentially correct.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Funny though how in Britain, the Party proposing a compromise solution between the two sides based on the negotiation of competing interests, and the balancing of different values, is considered the demagogic populist party, whereas the parties offering simple solutions (ie: Bollocks to Brexit) where there is complexity are depicted as the mature and responsible ones.

What steps to negotiate competing interests, or to balance different values, have you taken so far in your approach to Brexit, Bruce?

'Populism', in practice, is really just a self-serving term used to reinforce the identity politics of a class of people whose actual politics have overwhelmingly failed over the past fifteen years or so.

Or course, if we attempt a more precise and meaningful definition - Cas Mudde's, for instance - then we would have to concede that the most careful and sophisticated research demonstrates that the populists are essentially correct.

Aside from the fact that I'm in no position to actually 'do' anything, I have sought to understand some of the reasons behind the Brexit vote, and how the root cause of this disaffection can be addressed, both on here and in my work. I understand that any answer that isn't Corbyn-mania isn't one you want to hear so this will almost certainly be dismissed, but that's life I suppose.

 

[abelard]

Aside from the fact that I'm in no position to actually 'do' anything, I have sought to understand some of the reasons behind the Brexit vote, and how the root cause of this disaffection can be addressed, both on here and in my work. I understand that any answer that isn't Corbyn-mania isn't one you want to hear so this will almost certainly be dismissed, but that's life I suppose.

Haha I can't imagine you actually find that a satisfying response. At least when I caricature you about The Economist, it's in jest!

Seriously though, what compromises are you prepared to accept in order to resolve the current impasse?

Last I recall, your preferred solution was to just cancel Brexit arbitrarily, which "profoundly undemocratic"? Check. Abandoning the "negotiation of competing interests, and the balancing of different values"? Check. A "simple solution where there is complexity"? Check.

Do you really not see how the passage you posted describes your contributions on this thread as much as anyone's? If not, I suppose the final sentence in the passage helps explain why...

But then again, as I'm no more than the brainwashed victim of a political personality cult, I suppose that any answer that isn't what you want to hear will almost certainly be dismissed

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Haha I can't imagine you actually find that a satisfying response. At least when I caricature you about The Economist, it's in jest!

Seriously though, what compromises are you prepared to accept in order to resolve the current impasse?

Last I recall, your preferred solution was to just cancel Brexit arbitrarily, which "profoundly undemocratic"? Check. Abandoning the "negotiation of competing interests, and the balancing of different values"? Check. A "simple solution where there is complexity"? Check.

Do you really not see how the passage you posted describes your contributions on this thread as much as anyone's? If not, I suppose the final sentence in the passage helps explain why...

But then again, as I'm no more than the brainwashed victim of a political personality cult, I suppose that any answer that isn't what you want to hear will almost certainly be dismissed

I've never suggested 'cancelling Brexit arbitrarily'. In Japanese corporate culture there's something known as 'the 5 why's', and it's used to get to the root cause of any problem or issue. I've no doubt that there are many issues underpinning the desire to leave the European Union, as I've admitted dozens of times on this thread, but I doubt leaving the European Union is the answer to any of them. On migration, as an example, I've said many, many times that the government should do far more to help communities adapt to population change. I've said many, many times before that the government should do more to support economic activity in the regions. The thing is, has anyone actually done a root cause analysis on the Brexit vote? Has your Labour party done so?

You seem to believe that because I don't support Labour's medicine that I simply want to throw Brexit in the bin and pretend nothing has happened or needs to happen, which isn't what I've said in these threads whatsoever. I have, and will always, push back against things that are simply false, and won't apologise for doing so, but I've never once suggested that the country doesn't need to change.