Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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I understand that POV would be fine if the vote was actually about the EU as an organisation, (for want of a better word), but it wasnt. It was do we stay or go. So if you wanted the EU to be more sympathetic to the third world, voting to leave it kinda defeats that objective.

Plus I'm not sure us outside of the EU will be helping third world countries much. The biggest form of help you can give to a developing nation isn't to give it aid or to trade with it, but to allow its people to come and work in your country. Remittances are far and away the biggest flow of wealth from developed to developing nations.
 
Plus I'm not sure us outside of the EU will be helping third world countries much. The biggest form of help you can give to a developing nation isn't to give it aid or to trade with it, but to allow its people to come and work in your country. Remittances are far and away the biggest flow of wealth from developed to developing nations.

To be fair, I think most of them would prefer just to keep the doctors and engineers they've invested so much in training, who now work as Uber or Deliveroo drivers here because we sneer at their overseas qualifications.
 
To be fair, I think most of them would prefer just to keep the doctors and engineers they've invested so much in training, who now work as Uber or Deliveroo drivers here because we sneer at their overseas qualifications.

That's not really how it works though, is it? My wife wasn't sent to Britain to earn money to send back home, she came here because she wanted to experience new things in life and all the other things you gain from living overseas. Ironically, having been educated here, she's now more likely to go back home as a result of Brexit, so it would be Britain losing out on the skilled people. Such is life I suppose.

I guess what I'm saying is that people aren't pawns on a chessboard. They have their own hopes and ambitions.
 
Plus I'm not sure us outside of the EU will be helping third world countries much. The biggest form of help you can give to a developing nation isn't to give it aid or to trade with it, but to allow its people to come and work in your country. Remittances are far and away the biggest flow of wealth from developed to developing nations.

Yeah, of course, if they actually take their experience back with them, right? I'm not sure what the data is on the amount of people who come to Britain from the third world and end up actually going back. If anybody has some then I'd be intrigued to see it.

And the point @abelard makes is a good one. That's always been my concern when I hear people celebrating how we've got lots of doctors and nurses in the NHS from countries like Sri Lanka and Romania. It's like, yeah I'm very grateful but what about skills shortages in those (far poorer) countries?

As a progressive I'm not sure it's that progressive. Know what I mean?
 
I agree with you mate...

The UK has spent a great deal of time and money, looking after major parts of the world. We acted as a global policeman and rescued Europe quite a few times from Napoleon to Hitler. Tbh we have done our bit. It seems that it's the remainers who are more concerned with our status and influence than the leavers. Personally I'm happy just looking after our own island and people. Defending ourselves and not assuming some position of world leadership. The Americans, Chinese, and Europeans can do it now, if they are able. I don't want to see a single UK service man or woman harmed defending people who don't care about their own futures, nor spending humongous amounts of money helping to keep diabolical leaders and governments in power. We can leave the EU, seek trade, spend the benefits on our own, defend ourselves and have a good life. When we ruled the world, our people were poorer than many of those we 'ruled'. We let the Empire go, now we need to be true to our own and let the world get on without us.......

Pretty sure America and Russia had a very big hand in this too RE Hitler that is. Don't make out Britain saved all of us by itself which is simply not even close to being true.

Also "if they are able" Are you suggesting without Britain it would be hard for them? Britain's military is insignificant compared to the US and China.

You come up with some whoppers Pete.

Also "Let the empire go". Hardly Pete. There are several reasons the empire collapsed. One being two great wars that nearly bankrupted your country and secondly the emergence of other nations which caused occupied countries to decide enough was enough. They would have new allies and or partners if need be. Simply put your country was not as mighty as it was and couldn't hold onto them even if it wanted to.

You make it seem like that your government woke up one day and decided to be nice and relinquish control of every occupied territory.
 
Yeah, of course, if they actually take their experience back with them, right? I'm not sure what the data is on the amount of people who come to Britain from the third world and end up actually going back. If anybody has some then I'd be intrigued to see it.

And the point @abelard makes is a good one. That's always been my concern when I hear people celebrating how we've got lots of doctors and nurses in the NHS from countries like Sri Lanka and Romania. It's like, yeah I'm very grateful but what about skills shortages in those (far poorer) countries?

As a progressive I'm not sure it's that progressive. Know what I mean?

The modern revolution in Oman (1970-now) is more or less build upon people seeking education in the first world.
 
Yeah, of course, if they actually take their experience back with them, right? I'm not sure what the data is on the amount of people who come to Britain from the third world and end up actually going back. If anybody has some then I'd be intrigued to see it.

And the point @abelard makes is a good one. That's always been my concern when I hear people celebrating how we've got lots of doctors and nurses in the NHS from countries like Sri Lanka and Romania. It's like, yeah I'm very grateful but what about skills shortages in those (far poorer) countries?

As a progressive I'm not sure it's that progressive. Know what I mean?

It's a demographic thing a lot of the time, as developing countries are often younger, whereas developed countries tend to be older. Of course, it's not always like that, and some countries like Bulgaria have suffered population decline partly as a result of changing birth rates, partly down to migration.

Thankfully I didn't live through it, but most of my in-laws were hugely restricted in where they could travel, let alone move to work, so personally I think the freedom to move within the EU is the most valuable of the 4 freedoms. Economic stuff you can deal with, but freedom over what you do and where you do it is hugely powerful and should be cherished imo.

That's a shame mate, I hope she stays.

We'll see I suppose. I don't think May gets that. All this rhetoric about making life horrible for illegal immigrants sends exactly the wrong message to people that are here legally. It's a constant reminder that regardless of your skills, you are a 2nd class citizen in comparison to natives. That's a horrible message to give.
 
That's not really how it works though, is it? My wife wasn't sent to Britain to earn money to send back home, she came here because she wanted to experience new things in life and all the other things you gain from living overseas. Ironically, having been educated here, she's now more likely to go back home as a result of Brexit, so it would be Britain losing out on the skilled people. Such is life I suppose.

I guess what I'm saying is that people aren't pawns on a chessboard. They have their own hopes and ambitions.

Yes, obviously. I have lived in many countries and I'm not proposing that we make people apply for exit visas. But there is a qualitative difference between relatively balanced levels of movement between rich countries, and systematic brain drain from the developing world. I don't think we get to claim beneficence when we actively recruit capable people - whose talents we mostly squander - from the places that desperately need them, or that their remittance fees somehow make it all okay.
 
We'll see I suppose. I don't think May gets that. All this rhetoric about making life horrible for illegal immigrants sends exactly the wrong message to people that are here legally. It's a constant reminder that regardless of your skills, you are a 2nd class citizen in comparison to natives. That's a horrible message to give.

I think it would be an incredibly valuable civic exercise if everyone in Britain had to go through the process of applying for a visa to actually get into Britain. And the UK is hardly the only place that would benefit. The people who moan the loudest about immigration invariably know the least about how it actually works.
 
Pretty sure America and Russia had a very big hand in this too RE Hitler that is. Don't make out Britain saved all of us by itself which is simply not even close to being true.

Up to 22nd June 1941 neither the USA nor the Soviet Union were involved militarily.

After rolling up Western & Northern Europe,the Channel came between the UK and German forces. The invasion plans were thwarted by the inability of the Luftwaffe to destroy Fighter Command, a Fighter Command that admittedly had Commonwealth pilots as well as pilots from other countries in its ranks.

The consequences of a successful invasion of the British Isles in 1940 would have meant there would never have been a base from which the USA & other allies could have launched an invasion of Europe in 1944; Italian forces would have free reign in the Meditteranean Theatre, and German forces could have attacked the Soviet Union up to 6 weeks before they did, with the additional benefit of not having to deploy what became known as the Afrika Korps to the Med Theatre. Doesn't bear thinking about...

Therefore, one might say with a great degree of certainty that the British 'held the line' for a time until the other two major players entered the fray. And both entered the fray ONLY when they had been attacked, not through any act of kindness or understanding on their part...

The above does not include the lend-lease agreement with the USA in 1940, total repayment of which the USA held us to until the final payment (was it in the 1990s, or just after 2000?), just in case that might be thrown into the ring as a sop to how we were given a 'bunk up'. We didn't get anything that we did not have to pay for. And the Soviets benefited from the ASrctic/Murmansk convoys as well...

Just sayin'...
 
And both entered the fray ONLY when they had been attacked, not through any act of kindness or understanding on their part.

To be fair, we only entered it cos Poland got invaded.

And Merica only joined WW1 cos they intercepted (or whatever they did back than), a telegram from Germany to Mexico saying they would help Mexico invade California, or somewhere anyrate.

All very unsavoury.

Serious point. When we leave properly, will we be booted out of the Ryder Cup?

Thats why Rory represents the ROI isnt it? The snake.
 
You should check it out, Oman is an amazing place. The one country on the arabian peninsula that isn't ass backwards.
I'm sure all is sweetness and light.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/u...pecial-forces-public-order-tactics-1089953113
UK trains Oman's police and special forces in 'public order' tactics

British police officers have trained members of Oman's special forces, police and military in "public order" tactics since 2014 as part of a controversial $1.2m security and justice project, it has emerged.

The Police Service of Northern Ireland has been training members of Oman's police, military and special forces in how to deal with strikes and stifle protests under a Foreign Office-funded project revealed after a Freedom of Information request.

New of the training project, which came to an end in March, has been met with dismay by Omani rights campaigners. They say that the training included officers from Oman's elite Northern Frontier Regiment, which they claim opened fire on protesters in 2011 during the Arab Spring.

Khalfan al-Badwawi, an Omani human rights campaigner who fled the country in 2013 after being repeatedly detained by police, told MEE: "UK intervention in Oman has a long history from the start of the colony era, and these documents show us that Oman is still colonised."

He added that he was "horrified" by the revelation that the UK was training key Omani officers.

"These documents reach the point that the UK is not only training authoritarian regimes how to repress their people, but also using taxpayers money to train them how to do it," said Badwawi.

Controversial prisons deal

Ruled since 1970 by Sultan Qaboos bin Said al-Said, Oman is an absolute monarchy and has been condemned for its restrictions on freedom of expression by Human Rights Watch, which says authorities in the strategically placed country target peaceful activists and critics of the government.

Details of the Omani-PSNI training project have come to light two years after the UK government was forced to withdraw from a controversial $8m prisons deal with Saudi Arabia and Oman.

However, newly released documents show that Omani officials, police and military officers have made at least 14 trips to Northern Ireland since 2014 as part of Foreign Office-funded training in command and control, crowd control, public order policing and firearms demonstrations. The training is delivered by the PSNI through NI-CO, a firm owned by Northern Ireland's regional development agency.

PSNI says it does not train foreign militaries. But in a recent interview with Private Eye magazine the force's chief constable, Barbara Gray, admitted: "In respect of work with Oman, on occasion their partner agencies who also have responsibility for security within the country have been present."

Omani officials, police officers and military personnel have made at least 14 trips to Northern Ireland, according to the documents, and stayed in a five-star hotel while receiving public-order training and firearms demonstrations.

The training, which ran until this March at Garnerville Police College, in Belfast, also saw Omani officers receive intelligence-gathering, community-policing and road-safety training.

A history of control

Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK where police are routinely armed and can deploy rubber bullets and water cannons. Omani officers reportedly gave positive feedback on the visits and requested, and were granted, permission to observe PSNI policing of Loyalist sectarian marches during Easter 2016.

In total, more than 100 Omani officials and officers have travelled to Northern Ireland, while five teams of NI-CO consultants and PSNI officers have visited Oman. Most recently, 13 Omani officials travelled to Northern Ireland in March for command-and-control training for senior officers.

The most high-profile visit occurred in March 2015, when a senior Omani officer came to Northern Ireland and met Arlene Foster, the now leader of the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP), at the five-star Merchant Hotel in Belfast.

The UK maintained control of Oman throughout much of the 19th and 20th centuries. As late as the mid-1960s, the country received more than half of its income directly from London, while British military officers had key roles there.

Meanwhile British forces, including RAF planes and elite SAS soldiers, were used to put down a number of uprising from the 1950s to the 1970s. MI6 is alleged to have helped oversee a coup that deposed Sultan Said bin Taimur in 1970 and put the present ruler, his son, in power.

Most of the documents from the period remain closed until 2021 under the Official Secrets Act.

Mark Curtis, a historian and foreign policy analyst, said the newly revealed training of Oman's security forces was just the latest chapter in the UK's long-running support for the country's leadership.

He told MEE: "Britain's support for Oman is intended to help the ruler stay in power, increase the regime's ability to counter dissent and cultivate relations with military and intelligence officials who buy British weapons, promote British and Western interests in the region and who could be future leaders."

Curtis added that human rights are "nowhere" to be found in UK government calculations in the country. "I doubt they figure at all in the internal planning, except for public-relations purposes," he said.

New base east of Suez

The latest training deal comes as the UK further deepens relations with Oman. About 200 UK military personnel are based in Oman, including some on loan to the Omani armed forces. The two countries will hold major joint military drills next year, the largest overseas deployment of British forces since the invasion of Iraq in 2003.

The UK and Oman also recently signed a deal on a new naval and logistics base at Duqm in Oman, which will support the Royal Navy's new Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers when they deploy to the Gulf, amid claims that the UK is putting defence and security priorities above human rights.

Only by working with Oman can we bring about the changes we would like to see in the country

- UK Foreign Office

Oman is a major defence customer for the UK and recently purchased a fleet of 12 Eurofighter Typhoon jets, the first of which was presented to the government in Muscat by BAE Systems in May.

A spokesperson for the Foreign Office said: "We are helping train the Omani police force in how to manage public order in accordance with all international human rights considerations. Any assistance of training complies with our domestic and international human rights obligations."

They added: "Where we have concerns about human rights we will continue to raise them at an appropriate level, both in private and in public. Only by working with Oman can we bring about the changes we would like to see in the country."
 
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