Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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A survey of more than 20,000 ordinary voters found overwhelming support amongst both Leavers and Remainers for the PM's strategy of securing a clean break with the EU.

It finds that two-thirds of people would rather quit with no deal at all than settle for a soft Brexit which would see the UK stay in the Single Market and continue accepting free movement.

The stunning research, carried out by academics at the London School of Economics and Oxford University, is the most comprehensively polling exercise of its type since the referendum.
 
We all could have been French.

https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...inkname=bbcnews_merger_newsuk_merger&ns_fee=0

When Britain and France Almost Merged Into One Country
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On June 16, 1940, with Nazi Germany on the brink of crushing France, British prime minister Winston Churchill and French undersecretary of defense Charles de Gaulle met for lunch at the Carlton Club in London. These two great symbols of patriotism and national independence made an incredible agreement: Britain and France should be united into a single country called the “Franco-British Union.”

This was just two weeks after British and French troops were rescued from the beaches of Dunkirk, where they had become surrounded by German troops—a story captured in the new Christopher Nolan film Dunkirk. Although that battle story is fairly well known, the accompanying political drama that almost saw Britain and France merge is now largely forgotten. But the drama of that near-fusion can help explain the origins of European integration—and the reasons why Britain ultimately pulled away from the European Union in the decision we know as Brexit.

The scheme was born of crisis. On May 10, 1940, Germany had begun a relentless Blitzkrieg assault on France, and within a month, French resistance had largely collapsed. Defeatism was rife in France, and a dramatic step was needed to encourage the country to keep fighting from its colonies, and to stop the French fleet from falling into German hands.

A European Union flag is waved in front of Big Ben outside the Parliament in London on March 28, 2017.
The plan that emerged—to unify Britain and France into a single state—was not entirely new: The idea of integrating the European countries had floated around political circles for a few years, but always seemed fantastical. Catastrophe was about to turn impossibility into official policy.

On June 14, German troops entered Paris. During the next 48 hours, British and French civil servants drafted a proposal for a “Declaration on Franco-British Union.” This was no beefed-up wartime alliance, or a plan for partial integration similar to today’s European Union. The goal was to effectively create one country. The document stated: “At this most fateful moment in the history of the modern world, the Governments of the United Kingdom and the French Republic make this declaration of indissoluble union and unyielding resolution in their common defense of justice and freedom against subjection to a system which reduces mankind to a life of robots and slaves.” This meant: “France and Great Britain shall no longer be two nations, but one Franco-British Union.”

At a stroke, hundreds of years of constitutional history would be swept away. There would be joint control of defense, foreign policy, finance, and economic policy. The two parliaments would be united, presumably with French representatives sitting in the House of Commons in London. Churchill’s private secretary said, “We had before us the bridge to a new world, the first elements of European or even World Federation.”

Events moved fast. On June 16, Churchill was personally skeptical but presented the idea to the all-party British Cabinet. He was swept along by a wave of enthusiasm. “I was somewhat surprised,” wrote Churchill, “to see the staid, solid, experienced politicians of all parties engage themselves so passionately in an immense design whose implications and consequences were not in any way thought out.” Churchill put his doubts aside and told the Cabinet, “In this crisis we must not let ourselves be accused of lack of imagination.”

Charles de Gaulle, who had arrived that morning in London, also had qualms about ending the country of France as he knew it. But de Gaulle embraced the plan as a grand move to change the course of history: “The gesture must be immediate.”

At 4:30 pm, de Gaulle telephoned Paul Reynaud, the French prime minister, who had fled the advancing Germans, going from Paris to Tours and then Bordeaux. Reynaud listened to the proposal for a Franco-British Union with mounting excitement, as he scribbled down the details. Here lay possible salvation for France. According to one eyewitness, “His eyebrows went up so far they became indistinguishable from his neatly brushed hair.” Reynaud suddenly interrupted de Gaulle. “Does he agree to this? Did Churchill give you this personally?” De Gaulle handed the receiver to Churchill, who assured Reynaud that he approved. Reynaud was “transfigured with joy.”

In London, Churchill boarded a train along with leaders of the major parties, ready for a rendezvous with destiny. The train would travel to the coast, and then the party would sail by ship to meet the French government and sign the Act of Union.

The train never left the station. The scheme collapsed as quickly as it arose. In the days prior to June 16, the French government had become consumed by defeatism, as well as anger at Britain for the perceived abandonment at Dunkirk (over 100,000 French troops had been rescued but thousands more were left behind on the beach, where they were forced to surrender to the Germans). Reynaud presented the proposal to the French Council of Ministers, but it was rejected as a British plot to seize the French empire. Marshal Pétain, 84 years old and the great hero of World War I, believed it was his duty to save France from total destruction and accept an armistice with Germany. Britain was doomed, he said, and union would be “fusion with a corpse.” Another minister concluded: “Better be a Nazi province. At least we know what that means.” Reynaud later wrote in his memoirs, “Those who rose in indignation at the idea of union with our ally were the same individuals who were getting ready to bow and scrape to Hitler.”
Or Spanish if it wasn't for the fantastic weather we have in the British isles...
 
Seems like this 'huge survey' is nothing of the sort.

CORRECTION
August 11, 2017, at 5:17 p.m.
The researchers collected six data points each from 3,293 people, resulting in a dataset of 19,758 choices. An earlier version of this story misstated that the researchers surveyed 20,000 people.
 
Irish border paper: Britain is hostage to its own delusions
By Ian DuntWednesday, 16 August 2017 12:22 PMFollow iandunt


Over the last 12 months, Leavers were warned that a hard Brexit outside the customs union and single market would lead to the return of a hard border in Ireland. They called it Project Fear. Now here we are and Project Fear is Project Reality. The government's position paper on Ireland today suggests they have no plans to deal with this problem except to plead with the EU to save us from our own decisions.

(article continues....)

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/201...per-shows-britain-is-hostage-to-its-own-delus
 
Irish border paper: Britain is hostage to its own delusions
By Ian DuntWednesday, 16 August 2017 12:22 PMFollow iandunt


Over the last 12 months, Leavers were warned that a hard Brexit outside the customs union and single market would lead to the return of a hard border in Ireland. They called it Project Fear. Now here we are and Project Fear is Project Reality. The government's position paper on Ireland today suggests they have no plans to deal with this problem except to plead with the EU to save us from our own decisions.

(article continues....)

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/201...per-shows-britain-is-hostage-to-its-own-delus

What is your point though Clint. I have to say that this paper from the government is almost exactly what I suggested earlier in this thread. The UK are making a sensible and modernising suggestion to the benefit of all within Northern and Southern Ireland......
 
To a limited extent, the 27 sound members of the EU come to mind. I have no wish to part company with them.

Many of them, Poland, Austria, Hungary are just waking up to the fact that the EU are taking away their ability to run their own country. Germany and France believe they are ruling the EU anyway so are not that bothered. France will be when they finally realise just who runs the EU......
 
Many of them, Poland, Austria, Hungary are just waking up to the fact that the EU are taking away their ability to run their own country. Germany and France believe they are ruling the EU anyway so are not that bothered. France will be when they finally realise just who runs the EU......

Every Pole I know (not a huge sample, granted) is utterly ashamed of what their government is doing. If you're using Poland, Hungary et al and the actions of their government to justify Brexit then that really is a rabbit hole to go down.
 
Every Pole I know (not a huge sample, granted) is utterly ashamed of what their government is doing. If you're using Poland, Hungary et al and the actions of their government to justify Brexit then that really is a rabbit hole to go down.

No I wasn't. They have nothing to do with Brexit, that was our vote. The others will never get a vote......
 
No I wasn't. They have nothing to do with Brexit, that was our vote. The others will never get a vote......

I'm not really sure what point you're making? It just seems overwrought with paranoia that we 'won the war to stop the Huns ruling Europe and they've now done so through the back door...' Again, it's not a vast sample, but I speak to a number of people of various nationalities around Europe and I can't recall a single one that thinks that. It's the kind of supermarket tabloid conspiracy theory that populists push but is nowhere near reality and is the same kind of rhetoric the Scots use to justify independence from the UK (when the reality they have a whole bunch of powers that they really don't want to be judged against). Always easy to blame AN Other isn't it?
 
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