Current Affairs EU In or Out

[peteblue]

Who was he representing?

He was supposed to be representing the U.K.......

 

[Tubey]

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Excellent video and the point raised was spot on, a pity that the group was overwhelmingly white and Eurasian........

From Denmark I believe, so the demographics of the country need to be taken into account. I'm sure you could make a similar video in London with incredible diversity.

He was supposed to be representing the U.K.......

Which is whom?

 

[Old Blue 2]

Please, for crying out loud - understand that I am in no way saying that we shouldn't leave the EU. Despite the fact that I am an avid remainder, I accept that a small majority of the people that voted in June voted for us to leave it and therefore it must happen.

However, the facts remain.

• On the ballot paper it gave you an options of "remain a member of the European Union" and "leave the European Union". Under no terms was our membership of the European Single Market or the EEA under question, the opportunity to vote on it has yet to present itself.
• The 2015 general election winning Conservative Party manifesto states their commitment to the European Single Market.

I believe in democracy, therefore any attempt to skew this "binary" vote into something that has no political mandate needs to be directly opposed - not only for the good of the country and its people, but for the integrity of our democracy as a whole.

First bullet point: One cannot choose to leave an organisation, and then pick and choose which of the individual constituent parts one wishes to retain, simply for the selfish idea that it would be a good idea to retain it/them. To suggest that it is possible to retain certain parts while opting out of the whole shows a basic lack of advancing a logical premise. Sorry, but bluntly, that is what it is. To take your point to its illogical conclusion: a player wants to leave Everton, so the club sells him to another club. But he wants to play for Everton when they play last season's Champions, and when they play the team currently top of the division. No, when you're out, you're OUT! There are no subsidiary retaining/remaining conditions.
Second bullet point: The referendum was cross-party; the manifesto of any party was subsumed by the the referendum, whichever way that vote would go. Again, it is not a logical premise to bring individual party politics to a cross-party issue such as the referendum.

Binary. What a stupid thing that has been touted for hundreds of pages across this thread, as if it is some kind of uber-important matter! A referendum is a referendum is a referendum. The people voted. The Government took note and proceeded to move forward based on the majority vote of the British people (and in case you haven't read through all of this thread - and I don't expect you to have done so given its length - it has been stated quite clearly before that those who did not vote are classed as abstentions, which is a valid option of a democratic vote). I have no problem with people saying that they are against leaving the EU (although why they would want us to remain part of that corrupt organisation for one second baffles me), but I find the spurious points advanced in this thread time and time and time again, with newer entrants advancing the same old same old, as tiresome...

And finally, this: "...this "binary" vote into something that has no political mandate..." To reiterate what I said in answering the second bullet point above, the referendum was NOT along party lines. It was cross-party. The PM in taking the matter forward is acting in the role as leader of the UK, NOT as head of the Conservative Party. There is a difference in functions...

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Remainers have wasted all of the time since the referendum. Trying to undo the result and constantly crying about the ballot question and other nonsense. Their time would have been much more productively spent working with the Leave camp and the government in working through opportunities for the UK, identifying what we really want from the EU while putting up a united front. That hasn't happened, and unfortunately will not happen because they have demonstrated, as aptly shown by the SNP, that they cannot really be trusted. The Remain side have played this very badly and look more and more bitter rather than helpful. Continued remainers like Dim Farron, Clegg and co have a major difficulty now and that is because most people would feel that they would take the side of the EU over the UK and have basically lost all credibility.....

All of that is merely your extremely subjective opinion dressed up as fact mate.

Those who think that what the country is about to embark on i.e. the so called hard brexit, is likely to be extremely damaging to this countries economy, have every right to continue to express their views and challenge the path being taken. It's called democracy mate, and it didn't end on June 23rd.

 

[peteblue]

From Denmark I believe, so the demographics of the country need to be taken into account. I'm sure you could make a similar video in London with incredible diversity.



Which is whom?

The people of the UK......

 

[Old Blue 2]

What's the point? The political landscape is so toxic these days that any MP that votes with true intentions based on the integrity of British sovereignty or what's best for their constituents are chastised for being "enemies of the people"?

An MP was murdered in the cold light of day just last year because of it, and yet we're going to accept it?

Look, there's nothing more that I want right now other than to be proved wrong. I'd love it if someone could rebuke every single issue I've set out here with solid facts based on evidence.

But this is yet to happen. I read through the supposed "white paper" yesterday and, to me, it's full of empty rhetoric and heresay. Christ, I think somewhere in it it states that despite the fact that we are in control of legislation it didn't "feel like it".

For our country to prosper we need more than demagoguery. We need facts. We need solid propositions based on something. Not "look you lost, we're leaving the EU, the EEA and the ESM - stop crying you liberal lefty looney communist".

The last MP who voted with true intention was Jack Ashley, an honourable man.

It has been stated before in this thread, ad nauseum, that no one can say what will happen in the future. This had to be stated because the Remainers preached doom and gloom from 24th June 2016 onwards. Hence the reason why political and financial commentators in the media have been challenged in this thread, as their pro-Remain stance and predictions of dire future consequences have no foundation whatsoever in fact. No one can say accurately what the future holds. No one, not even the Government, can predict how the future negotiations with the EU will go - to suggest otherwise is simply wrong. Did you really think the White Paper would lay everything out in minute detail? REALLY? On the matter of future predictions, who could have predicted, for example, that the top man at the Bank of England would come out yesterday and say there would be GROWTH in the forthcoming months!

To expect others who hold a different view to you to accurately predict the future is disingenuous of you, and is a classic example of nit-picking to score points, rather than advancing any reasonable kind of proposition...

 

[peteblue]

All of that is merely your extremely subjective opinion dressed up as fact mate.

Those who think that what the country is about to embark on i.e. the so called hard brexit, is likely to be extremely damaging to this countries economy, have every right to continue to express their views and challenge the path being taken. It's called democracy mate, and it didn't end on June 23rd.

Of course. But given that we were told that the economy would tank, be well into recession by now etc etc, why should anyone believe you. The BoE has only yesterday upgraded its forecasts for the economy over the next couple of years. Democracy was served on June 23rd, events by individuals since have tried to undermine that democracy. It would be better for all to start putting forward positive proposals for the development of an Independent UK instead of only suggesting doom in the future.......

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Of course. But given that we were told that the economy would tank, be well into recession by now etc etc, why should anyone believe you. The BoE has only yesterday upgraded its forecasts for the economy over the next couple of years. Democracy was served on June 23rd, events by individuals since have tried to undermine that democracy. It would be better for all to start putting forward positive proposals for the development of an Independent UK instead of only suggesting doom in the future.......

The only reason the economy hasn't tanked is due to consumer confidence. The predictions were based on it falling post the result, they got that wrong, as half the nation got what they wanted and credit is still plentiful, so the machine is still being fed.

It remains to be seen what effect the inevitable inflation curve will have on that confidence as the year goes on. I hope people remain bullish, but it's the key factor in what drives our economy.

May tried to undermine our Parliamentary democracy btw.

 

[peteblue]

Two senior judges have blocked a legal challenge to the government’s strategy for leaving the single market and the European Economic Area.

In a hearing at the high court that lasted less than an hour, Lord Justice Lloyd Jones and Mr Justice Lewis dismissed an application for a fresh judicial review of the Brexit process brought by two sets of claimants.....

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The people of the UK......

So only those with a British passport rather than those whose home and livelihoods are here? What about all of those who don't want to leave the UK? How is/was he representing them?

 

[Old Blue 2]

The only reason the economy hasn't tanked is due to consumer confidence. The predictions were based on it falling post the result, they got that wrong, as half the nation got what they wanted and credit is still plentiful, so the machine is still being fed.

It remains to be seen what effect the inevitable inflation curve will have on that confidence as the year goes on. I hope people remain bullish, but it's the key factor in what drives our economy.

May tried to undermine our Parliamentary democracy btw.

You are perhaps hung by your own petard by your first sentence...

The financial 'experts' (and I use that term very loosely, given their track record) got it wrong. Yes, exactly.

Your second paragraph, again exactly, for the rreason no one can say what the future holds 100%...

Your last sentence. No she did not. There is never an over-riding obligation for a PM to have to consult Parliament and gain approval on every single issue that comes before them. You may not have sen it in a previous post of mine, since it is now buried deep in this thread, but there is such a thing as an 'Order in Council', which the PM can invoke to achieve something. Thatcher used it to remove from the trade union members in GCHQ the 'right of association' in the 1980s. Ergo May did not undermine our Parliamentary democracy, she sought to move forward with the democratic vote of the UK, but did not invoke an Order in Council. So someone wasted around 3 months or more in slowing down the process - wonderful, NOT!!!

 

[peteblue]

So only those with a British passport rather than those whose home and livelihoods are here? What about all of those who don't want to leave the UK? How is/was he representing them?

I didn't say that, but I knew that you would respond in the way you did. For me the people of the UK are those that were born here, those that legally chose to live here, those UK people who have decided to retire in warmer climates and those whose work takes them elsewhere (business, armed forces etc).......

 

[Tubey]

The only reason the economy hasn't tanked is due to consumer confidence. The predictions were based on it falling post the result, they got that wrong, as half the nation got what they wanted and credit is still plentiful, so the machine is still being fed.

It remains to be seen what effect the inevitable inflation curve will have on that confidence as the year goes on. I hope people remain bullish, but it's the key factor in what drives our economy.

May tried to undermine our Parliamentary democracy btw.

If you look at the underlying reasons behind this "2% growth" etc. you'll see why it's happening and why it can't be sustained.

We're in the calm before the storm right now. I see it as someone desperately treading water, making headway and keeping well above water for now, but in an hours time they'll be exhausted and drown.

 

[peteblue]

You are perhaps hung by your own petard by your first sentence...

The financial 'experts' (and I use that term very loosely, given their track record) got it wrong. Yes, exactly.

Your second paragraph, again exactly, for the rreason no one can say what the future holds 100%...

Your last sentence. No she did not. There is never an over-riding obligation for a PM to have to consult Parliament and gain approval on every single issue that comes before them. You may not have sen it in a previous post of mine, since it is now buried deep in this thread, but there is such a thing as an 'Order in Council', which the PM can invoke to achieve something. Thatcher used it to remove from the trade union members in GCHQ the 'right of association' in the 1980s. Ergo May did not undermine our Parliamentary democracy, she sought to move forward with the democratic vote of the UK, but did not invoke an Order in Council. So someone wasted around 3 months or more in slowing down the process - wonderful, NOT!!!

Actually, in respect of the legal challenge and subsequent vote and white paper, I'm glad we went down that route and believe it to be time well spent to ensure that all avenues of potential challenge are removed before we begin negotiations. It strengthens Mays hand and removes all doubts of 'legitimacy'.....indeed I expect today's legal challenge was thrown out precisely because we are covering all the bases......