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ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC" part 3

degsy said:


But that's Baseball and Hollywood - will it work in the real world
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Analytics works in Football, what big rock have you been under?

Also that film is based on a true story lol, it's Not Hollywood fiction, analytics in Baseball started in the early 00s with the Red Sox and Oakland A's, now every baseball team uses it for recruitment by having a Ivy League maths Nerd as the GM in charge of player acquisitions.
 
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EverTheOptimist said:
Analytics works in Football, what big rock have you been under?

Also that film is based on a true story lol, it's Not Hollywood fiction, analytics in Baseball started in the early 00s with the Red Sox and Oakland A's, now every baseball team uses it for recruitment with every team having a Ivy League maths Nerd as the GM in charge of player acquisitions.
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Didn't really work for keita . Analytics only works for basic attributes and whether a player can play to a manager's system. It can't tell you how a player will respond to his team mates, playing staff or even the club, city, fans he'll be playing for. There's loads of variables outside of analytics.
 
trueblue84 said:
Didn't really work for keita . Analytics only works for basic attributes and whether a player can play to a manager's system. It can't tell you how a player will respond to his team mates, playing staff or even the club, city, fans he'll be playing for. There's loads of variables outside of analytics.
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Yeah but one transfer failure amongst loads of transfer successes, multiple finals and winning some trophies is deemed a failure by you, you're a perfectionist.

What are basic attributes at a analytical level?

You look like you prefer the hapless Old dated model, of a sole DoF and the old fashioned scouting model who sign players as flavour of the month or sign players on reputation alone or go off a scoring streak.
 

EverTheOptimist said:
Yeah but one transfer failure amongst loads of transfer successes, multiple finals and winning some trophies is deemed a failure by you, you're a perfectionist.

What are basic attributes at a analytical level?

You look like you prefer the hapless Old dated model, of a sole DoF and the old fashioned scouting model who sign players as flavour of the month or sign players on reputation alone or go off a scoring streak.
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Learn about Gemba.

Data on its own doesn't tell you everything. Putting yourself in the middle of the "shop floor" and speaking to people is just as important.
 
trueblue84 said:
Wasn't there a random statistic that iwobi was one of the top crossers in the league and that's why we signed him?

That worked really well for us lol
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When he played for Arsenal I was baffled what Wenger saw in him, stealing a living player.

So he was signed off crossing you say, looking at his stats he was a 1 in 10 games goalscorer but his assists numbers are just as bad , maybe he was signed for how many times he crossed the ball per game average because the assists are quite low which makes his quality crossing stats abysmal.

No wonder he was bought off the old DoF model, an analytical recruitment team wouldn't have had him on their radar, no redeeming feature in his Arsenal stats stick out, goals, assists, pressures, shots, and chance conversion are awful from his arsenal days.

A top attacker has 3.5/4 shots a game, Iwobi's are just under 1 shot per game, which screams out loud he should never have been an attacking front free player, not instinctive or good enough to be that high up the pitch.

Put him down as an awful signing from a bad systematic recruitment model under Brands.
 
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EverTheOptimist said:
Analytics works in Football, what big rock have you been under?

Also that film is based on a true story lol, it's Not Hollywood fiction, analytics in Baseball started in the early 00s with the Red Sox and Oakland A's, now every baseball team uses it for recruitment by having a Ivy League maths Nerd as the GM in charge of player acquisitions.
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Your real names not Jon Snow is it?
because Jon Snow...fill in, based on statistical probablity, the next three words
 
Jacob said:
I see after his appalling performance in their recent "win" at Palace, Kevin Friend has been dropped for the next Premier fixtures after the Cup this week. Pity Craig Pawson, the VAR who advised Friend to review his decision on Jota's enhanced tumble, isnt dropped too. We've had our bellyful of the two of them.
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No retrospective ban for simulation for Jota.?
Winning by cheating. They never stop.
Anyone watching that live could see how he played for the foul, yet two, £100,000 per year referees saw a foul? Shocking
 

Johnniepk said:
No retrospective ban for simulation for Jota.?
Winning by cheating. They never stop.
Anyone watching that live could see how he played for the foul, yet two, £100,000 per year referees saw a foul? Shocking
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Seemed like pressure after the fallout from Tierney's performance in that Spurs game with that Jota non penalty.


Time for Mike Riley to step down, PL needs a new direction for match officials, they are all shockingly bad.
 
EverTheOptimist said:
When he played for Arsenal I was baffled what Wenger saw in him, stealing a living player.

So he was signed off crossing you say, looking at his stats he was a 1 in 10 games goalscorer but his assists numbers are just as bad , maybe he was signed for how many times he crossed the ball per game average because the assists are quite low which makes his quality crossing stats abysmal.

No wonder he was bought off the old DoF model, an analytical recruitment team wouldn't have had him on their radar, no redeeming feature in his Arsenal stats stick out, goals, assists, pressures, shots, and chance conversion are awful from his arsenal days.

A top attacker has 3.5/4 shots a game, Iwobi's are just under 1 shot per game, which screams out loud he should never have been an attacking front free player, not instinctive or good enough to be that high up the pitch.

Put him down as an awful signing from a bad systematic recruitment model under Brands.
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See this is the major flaw in basing anything in football solely on a stats model. You have to see with your own eyes, I am not saying stats can't be helpful but why only use this or why use this as the first port of call when deciding on a player.

The first bold bit, what if the strikers were not that good. What if 85% of balls were perfectly placed but the striker was not in position or they were well marked. Maybe over time (a long time) you can judge but the modern manager doesn't always have time to assess a player over a long period of time.

The second part, who said this was a fact? A top attacking player does not only have to be a player who has a ton of shots. A top attacker could be somebody who simply poaches on the odd chance and has other elements to their game which bring other players into play, somebody who drifts out wide creating space for others, is an example. Barrow have a striker that is absolutely superb for us, with the way we play (or played as he is injured), I would dare say that he doesn't have an average anywhere near that so to be so simple as to have a basic stat and say they are not good enough is not the the right way to go about things.

For me, a scout needs to see a player before judging, how they interact with teammates, what kind of style is their current team playing, how adaptable do they seem, etc. The idea of basing a scouting strategy on seeing players play is not perfect but it is 100% logical. Pienaar is a good example, I don't know the stats but it is possible that he passed to Baines for an assist more than he assisted himself but he was massively instrumental to how we played. Now if somebody just looked at his stats as a midfielder then they would pass when in reality, if they watched him they might think that he would fit into the way they play.

Simply put there are no perfect ways to judge a player but watching them actually play is still the best method, stats can easily be used to back up certain aspects but seriously who gets into the scouting business to sit in front of a PC looking at numbers, you want to be out there watching football, watching players, judging with your own eyes.

Back on topic....Kopites are...... well we all know the rest.
 
wandyr79 said:
See this is the major flaw in basing anything in football solely on a stats model. You have to see with your own eyes, I am not saying stats can't be helpful but why only use this or why use this as the first port of call when deciding on a player.

The first bold bit, what if the strikers were not that good. What if 85% of balls were perfectly placed but the striker was not in position or they were well marked. Maybe over time (a long time) you can judge but the modern manager doesn't always have time to assess a player over a long period of time.

The second part, who said this was a fact? A top attacking player does not only have to be a player who has a ton of shots. A top attacker could be somebody who simply poaches on the odd chance and has other elements to their game which bring other players into play, somebody who drifts out wide creating space for others, is an example. Barrow have a striker that is absolutely superb for us, with the way we play (or played as he is injured), I would dare say that he doesn't have an average anywhere near that so to be so simple as to have a basic stat and say they are not good enough is not the the right way to go about things.

For me, a scout needs to see a player before judging, how they interact with teammates, what kind of style is their current team playing, how adaptable do they seem, etc. The idea of basing a scouting strategy on seeing players play is not perfect but it is 100% logical. Pienaar is a good example, I don't know the stats but it is possible that he passed to Baines for an assist more than he assisted himself but he was massively instrumental to how we played. Now if somebody just looked at his stats as a midfielder then they would pass when in reality, if they watched him they might think that he would fit into the way they play.

Simply put there are no perfect ways to judge a player but watching them actually play is still the best method, stats can easily be used to back up certain aspects but seriously who gets into the scouting business to sit in front of a PC looking at numbers, you want to be out there watching football, watching players, judging with your own eyes.

Back on topic....Kopites are...... well we all know the rest.
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Scouts are involved in analytics, theyve been instructed to watch from players who have obviously stood out from the stats, they won't watch only one player they'll be multiple players who's stats stick out a mile from players in that position that you are targeting, and you use data from previous seasons to see if those stats on the attributes have gone up to the present level.

Pienaar as you said there he might have looked good the progressive passing stats, not actual assist passes but those forward passes that do damage that are part of chance creation.

Someone posted earlier that analytical recruitment was based on basic attributes, it's based on much more than that, it's intricate numbers, underlying ones as well as basic, it's way better than the old model relying on just a DoF and scouts model.
 
EverTheOptimist said:
Analytics works in Football, what big rock have you been under?

Also that film is based on a true story lol, it's Not Hollywood fiction, analytics in Baseball started in the early 00s with the Red Sox and Oakland A's, now every baseball team uses it for recruitment by having a Ivy League maths Nerd as the GM in charge of player
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Would like to see the team who has won the most games from a referees decision, would I need to be a professor of mathematics.
 

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