ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC" part 3

[dholliday]

I'm a bit uncomfortable with the stick that @BlueToff is getting. He's a good blue although I do respectfully disagree with some of the stuff he's saying here.

Thanks Phil. Can agree to disagree.

aye...every thread, every robust discussion generally, benefits from soundly-argumented contrary points-of-view.

My angle is the coordinated media narrative, which happens to be onside with the consensus here, but @BlueToff has said some interesting things too.

As ever, the cold hard truth will be a mix of a lot of different things.

 

[ToffeeTim]

Absolutely they do. I am not denying that.

Do UEFA and the authorities also not need to take responsibility?

Of course, but telling someone who wants to sneak into a stadium not to do it, won't make much difference.

The people I have a lot of sympathy for are those with genuine tickets who didn't get in because of a lack of organisation and the selfish behaviour of others.

 

[NathDogg]

Thanks Phil. Can agree to disagree. I don't think that's unfair. I will call out tosh and lies when I see it though. People seem to be insinuating I've said that there were no reds trying to get in with fake tickets - or absolving them of responsibility - which I'm not doing at all!

I just think authorities lying, as they have done, is sickening, especially because it doesn't take much for English/British fans in Europe to get stick as it is.

Look at what Rangers and Frankfurt have managed to do after the Europa League final, for example. Another UEFA showpiece event that was completely mismanaged. Anyway, I only logged back in to reply to @spectateur because he's a good poster too!

There’s blame all around toff, I think we can all agree on that. Uefa have admitted some blame from their end and also the police, but I’m not sure how else they were expected to react?

It’s the absolute rs fans and media whitewash that is really depressing and inflammatory - there shouldn’t be a polarised viewpoint that absolves them of any blame on what happened, when clearly blaggers and ticketless fans have caused some of these issues - 2700 genuine fans are being refunded because of them.

It’s clear paperless tickets need to go in the bin just to stop the scammers and there needs to be a better, more joined up police/uefa management and response going forward.

 

[PhilM]

Thanks Phil. Can agree to disagree. I don't think that's unfair. I will call out tosh and lies when I see it though. People seem to be insinuating I've said that there were no reds trying to get in with fake tickets - or absolving them of responsibility - which I'm not doing at all!

I just think authorities lying, as they have done, is sickening, especially because it doesn't take much for English/British fans in Europe to get stick as it is.

Look at what Rangers and Frankfurt have managed to do after the Europa League final, for example. Another UEFA showpiece event that was completely mismanaged. Anyway, I only logged back in to reply to @spectateur because he's a good poster too!

In a simplified version, I see it as: French didn't organised it particularly well; there were lots of fake tickets, which the evidence suggests was more to do with LFC.

We (the English) got a bad reputation in general and the RS have an even worse reputation. Too many went, too many didn't have tickets and the French reacted.*

There's blame on both sides as each element exacerbated the situation rather than one sole contributing factor being the catalyst for what occurred.

But right now the French are pointing their finger at the RS, while the RS point the finger back and plead innocence, which means neither will learn from it.

*Over the top in many elements may I add, but it's naive to think there wasn't some form of reasoning behind it.

Absolutely
British police just stand by and watch, continental coppers are right up for it
Part of the reason British hooligans don’t travel anymore. Cracked skulls and 3 months in a dodgy nick with a dodgy trial will put anyone off

I'm not advocating their response, but equally I'm not going to moan when they act within the parameters that their society allows, facilitates or supports.

Look at the French response to their own fans (there's many videos on PSG); look at how the French have a penchant for disturbances and rioting.

If you go over there, you've got to expect their response and as such it's our responsibility to adapt to their psyche, rather than them tailoring for us.

It's a part of the English/British culture that I detest - 'we expect it this way, so they should act this way.' Nah, sorry. If you travel to France, toe the line.

People who don't toe the line should expect the Gendarmerie to give you a leathering, like they give their own!

 

[Cow kecks]

UEFA changed their story in the space of 90 minutes.

The French government have used figures that, as that thread - by a Leicester fan, as it says in his bio - goes to show, are either greatly exaggerated or impossible to have verified without everything being checked off independently.

Rebecca Vardy is a Leicester fan mate, being a fan of theirs does not automatically make them experts at anything. As I said, when did this inquiry conclude?

 

[Taifi gorm]

how do we know the French were incompetent? We haven't got access to anywhere near the amount of information they had either before the event or of events occurring during the event, the use of dispersal tactics (tear gas) at the turnstiles/congested areas may have saved lives and may turn out to have been a very competent thing to do. We need to wait and see what transpires as we don't like the RS, but we also have issues with French riot cops and sycophant politicians.

Preventing overcrowding and a possible Hillsborough is not incompetence by the French police anyhow.
It's the textbook definition of good police work and stadia management.

 

[Noisy noise annoys]

In a simplified version, I see it as: French didn't organised it particularly well; there were lots of fake tickets, which the evidence suggests was more to do with LFC.

We (the English) got a bad reputation in general and the RS have an even worse reputation. Too many went, too many didn't have tickets and the French reacted.*

There's blame on both sides as each element exacerbated the situation rather than one sole contributing factor being the catalyst for what occurred.

But right now the French are pointing their finger at the RS, while the RS point the finger back and plead innocence, which means neither will learn from it.

*Over the top in many elements may I add, but it's naive to think there wasn't some form of reasoning behind it.


I'm not advocating their response, but equally I'm not going to moan when they act within the parameters that their society allows, facilitates or supports.

Look at the French response to their own fans (there's many videos on PSG); look at how the French have a penchant for disturbances and rioting.

If you go over there, you've got to expect their response and as such it's our responsibility to adapt to their psyche, rather than them tailoring for us.

It's a part of the English/British culture that I detest - 'we expect it this way, so they should act this way.' Nah, sorry. If you travel to France, toe the line.

People who don't toe the line should expect the Gendarmerie to give you a leathering, like they give their own!

Totally agree. Brit’s walking round like they own the place , will never go down well

 

[joey_macmo]

Does anyone know what happened in Lille then ??

Becasue my view on it was that it escualted as some fans starting to throw bottles at the police who went into the crowd ot target 1 or 2 known infividuals !?!

People were on edge because the night before a load of blue had been ambushed outside a bar and done in.

On the day Plain clothed police predominantly in black went in to the square and grabbed a lad and started dragging him away, problem was that they had no ID’ing features on them nor did they explain they were police.

Some blues thought it was similar to the night before and started having a go back.

The police then got out their red bands (which afaik they’re meant to wear at all times) after they were being attacked and called for back up.

Then the tear gas came to disperse the evertonians so they could get to the plain clothed fellas who were huddled in a doorway.

 

[m hart89 efc]

I say we get off the subject of their fans being feral creatures and get onto the subject of them getting excited for the quadruple and Everton relegation for months before ending up with the domestic cups and Everton survival

That’s what no one is focusing on cos of the talk of how the fans were ‘mistreated’ in Paris.

I think what’s the funniest is you seen how much the council put in to their we’re boss at pens parade, clearly expecting a league title or CL to parade, instead they got none an ended up parading 2 trophies their stain of a manager and fans couldn’t care less about any other season lol

 

[tommye]

 

[dholliday]

Preventing overcrowding and a possible Hillsborough is not incompetence by the French police anyhow.
It's the textbook definition of good police work and stadia management.

just shows how far apart perspectives can get:

this is from RAWK:

 

[toffee matt]

We do . we deserved it . Liverpool is the Naples of Britain.

Oh come fella don’t do the right wings bidding for them

Naples is great btw too

 

[joey_macmo]

I'm a bit uncomfortable with the stick that @BlueToff is getting. He's a good blue although I do respectfully disagree with some of the stuff he's saying here.

Insinuating he's a RS or biased towards them is however, in my own humble opinion, unfair.

Agreed

 

[Charro]

Oh come fella don’t do the right wings bidding for them

Naples is great btw too

I was there the other week.

It’s great. Certain parts are extremely moody like but I had a boss time.

 

[PhilM]

Totally agree. Brit’s walking round like they own the place , will never go down well

I went to a Hannover 98 once to watch them play Werder Bremen. This was described to me as relatively competitive fixture as part of the west German rivalries.

Before the game, both sets of fans freely mingled outside their stadium even with the rivalry. I asked my friend, a German citizen, why it was so calm.

He pointed to the towering grocks that make up the BePos (Federal/State riot cops) and respectfully quipped, "We'll lose if we fight." Simple as that.