2024/25 David Moyes

[Lanolin]

All I saw Saturday was aimless passes towards Beto or Doucoure. Even if it is to them, they can't control it. I'm not talking about hoofball, these two guys can't compete against better midfields and centerbacks.

Looking back at the second goal, I don't think Pickford did Tarkowski any favors. The team didn't look set or aware that play was going to re-start.

No argument there, but that's a different point really - if you don't think we're good enough to play direct then we obviously aren't good enough to play with more possession because that would just highlight what you're saying even more.

 

[Moomin]

Interesting you mention that game. You can check posts(notice you throw that out a lot)
Dyche had them beat at Goodison. A mixture of iraola and dyche's limiitations caused that defeat. Iraola just threw caution to the wind and chucked on half a team so im not gona say it was genius. Dyche however stood there picking his nose as everyone could see what was coming.
You can check posts. Ive stated a few times he should have cleared his desk that day. His Game plan was ok from kick off. Soon as in game plan needed changing he was clueless. To top it off he blamed everyone but himself for that game.

He is probably mass quoting you right now.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Interesting you mention that game. You can check posts(notice you throw that out a lot)
Dyche had them beat at Goodison. A mixture of iraola and dyche's limiitations caused that defeat. Iraola just threw caution to the wind and chucked on half a team so im not gona say it was genius. Dyche however stood there picking his nose as everyone could see what was coming.
You can check posts. Ive stated a few times he should have cleared his desk that day. His Game plan was ok from kick off. Soon as in game plan needed changing he was clueless. To top it off he blamed everyone but himself for that game.

So, when you said style/setup doesn't matter at the weekend as they're just a better team - why did you fume so much as Dyche for us collapsing from 87 minutes to the point of you wanting him sacked after it? Why did style/setup matter then, but not now?

The answer of course is, setup does matter, and as per my first post quoting Branthwaite - we got it wrong from the off at the weekend.

The irony is, while a manager can of course heavily impact how a team can setup - I don't think for one moment a manager can impact a team so much to let slip a 2-0 defeat from 87 minutes. You should be able to put Elton John in charge of a Prem home team from 87 minutes an still see out a 2-0 lead.

 

[pfim]

No argument there, but that's a different point really - if you don't think we're good enough to play direct then we obviously aren't good enough to play with more possession because that would just highlight what you're saying even more.

I'm saying the ball needs through the wide midfielders as they are the ones with the ability to progress the ball. You're not doing that by playing direct.

Doucoure needs to sit, anyone would be better in that spot with Beto as the striker, or we'll have a lot more matches like we did to start Saturday.

 

[Gilbert..]

So, when you said style/setup doesn't matter at the weekend as they're just a better team - why did you fume so much as Dyche for us collapsing from 87 minutes to the point of you wanting him sacked after it? Why did style/setup matter then, but not now?

The answer of course is, setup does matter, and as per my first post quoting Branthwaite - we got it wrong from the off at the weekend.

The irony is, while a manager can of course heavily impact how a team can setup - I don't think for one moment a manager can impact a team so much to let slip a 2-0 defeat from 87 minutes. You should be able to put Elton John in charge of a Prem home team from 87 minutes an still see out a 2-0 win.

Ive stated that a few times and im just repeating myself coz you're throwing out the same question. I'll say it anyway. The game is 90 minutes plus whatever injury time. Very relevant in that Goodison game. He took off two players that were occupying bournemouth. And put on two players with the worst ball retention in doucoure and beto. The ball was going straight back to them. We were still winning going into injury time. Like said everyone could see what was coming. He had 3 subs left to break the game up. Break their momentum. He stood there and done nothing.
As far as im aware the premier league dont give you the points for winning a game up until a certain minute.

 

[NathDogg]

All I saw Saturday was aimless passes towards Beto or Doucoure. Even if it is to them, they can't control it. I'm not talking about hoofball, these two guys can't compete against better midfields and centerbacks.

Looking back at the second goal, I don't think Pickford did Tarkowski any favors. The team didn't look set or aware that play was going to re-start.

They did that so many times, fannying about while the rest of the team were not set, and we got away with it but they didn’t it leadn the lesson, and it cost us that shambolic second goal.

We need much better movement from midfield and attack for the more direct balls in the channels or it just breaks down too easily.

 

[Lanolin]

I'm saying the ball needs through the wide midfielders as they are the ones with the ability to progress the ball. You're not doing that by playing direct.

Doucoure needs to sit, anyone would be better in that spot with Beto as the striker, or we'll have a lot more matches like we did to start Saturday.

Again, I think you're just not understanding. 'Being more direct' just means not passing the ball out at the back and taking circuitous routes forward. Giving the ball to a winger and them running forward with it is being more direct.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Ive stated that a few times and im just repeating myself coz you're throwing out the same question. I'll say it anyway. The game is 90 minutes plus whatever injury time. Very relevant in that Goodison game. He took off two players that were occupying bournemouth. And put on two players with the worst ball retention in doucoure and beto. The ball was going straight back to them. We were still winning going into injury time. Like said everyone could see what was coming. He had 3 subs left to break the game up. Break their momentum. He stood there and done nothing.
As far as im aware the premier league dont give you the points for winning a game up until a certain minute.

At the weekend we had a defence with Young, Tarkowski and Mykolenko trying to patiently play out from the back.

I made one post in the match thread, at HT;

Team isn't good enough to play out the back.

In my view, the second half then demonstrated the difference.

Plenty of others have made the same point. Including Moyes;

"Disappointing start to the game. We gave away two dreadful goals. I'm pleased with the way they responded in the second half.

In this thread, I shared the view again - reaffirmed by players after the game saying the same thing;

we put pressure on ourselves, we gave goals away and then the second half it's completely different.

“We go more direct, and we create loads of chances in the second half and hit the post the post three or four times and on a different day, they go in.

To conclude then, at the weekend we setup badly.

You've challenged that opinion - you've did so by excusing any style by saying Bournemouth are just the better team. They are. But it's no excuse for not giving yourself the best opportunity to compete.

And if you're going to excuse the defeat as Bournemouth are just the better team, then by bringing Dyche into the equation when you did nothing but slate him for losing Bournemouth doesn't really support your argument. I mean, style doesn't matter according to you, they're just better.

 

[Marius57]

You say "Bournemouth are just a better side" to excuse the defeat. (Wonder if I search your posts for 'Bournemouth' whether you give Dyche that same courtesy...).

I say, most of the league are better - hence the struggle.

Dyche did indeed keep the wolves from the door for most of his time here. Now Moyes has the same task for a few months until we can spend big. He's no mug, he knows it - hence the continual, unprompted praise on Dyche. Imagine if Moyes was told he's not allowed to spend this summer, and a point deduction was coming next season. Or unable to spend again the summer afterwards. How long until the wheels come off?

We're 16th, the bounce will go, and I'll be surprised if we finish above 15th. Why? Because most teams are better than us. Considering that, don't try and play out from the back as we did first half Vs Bournemouth.

Don’t think anyone would be surprised by us not finishing higher than 15th. And we shouldn’t be expecting to.

When Moyes came in, we were stranded with the relegation group. 4 points adrift of 15th and 6 points adrift of 14/13th.

Sole focus was staying up because of where the last manager left us. 1 point above relegation, bereft of confidence in how to actually play football, few goals in the team. The expectation on Moyes shouldn’t change after 4 games in charge.

The difference is, even if it’s a bounce (that will inevitably end), we wont go on runs of 15 games without winning etc. we will have poor runs sure, but will actually win some games in between.

 

[pfim]

Again, I think you're just not understanding. 'Being more direct' just means not passing the ball out at the back and taking circuitous routes forward. Giving the ball to a winger and them running forward with it is being more direct.

I am. How is the ball getting to the winger?

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Don’t think anyone would be surprised by us not finishing higher than 15th. And we shouldn’t be expecting to.

Just on 40% of the season to go - win our game in hand - one that we won last season - and we're 13th.

... there's fans now saying we need to look up, and fair play to them. We've won a couple, lets see how long we can ride that bounce. After all, we finished 12th lasts eason with all the distraction/pressure of point deductions hanging over us.

When Moyes came in, we were stranded with the relegation group. 4 points adrift of 15th and 6 points adrift of 14/13th.

Sole focus was staying up because of where the last manager left us. 1 point above relegation, bereft of confidence in how to actually play football, few goals in the team. The expectation on Moyes shouldn’t change after 4 games in charge.

The difference is, even if it’s a bounce (that will inevitably end), we wont go on runs of 15 games without winning etc. we will have poor runs sure, but will actually win some games in between.

The reality, at least to me, is this team is 12th at best with no injuries.

17th at worst. We should outperform Southampton, Ipswich and Leicester.

When you sit in that space, bottom half of the table, any team that's been in successive relegation fights will be in a relegation scrap until it isn't.

This team, no matter the manager, will be in a scrap.

 

[Gilbert..]

At the weekend we had a defence with Young, Tarkowski and Mykolenko trying to patiently play out from the back.

I made one post in the match thread, at HT;



In my view, the second half then demonstrated the difference.

Plenty of others have made the same point.

In this thread, I shared the view again - reaffirmed by players after the game saying the same thing;



To conclude then, at the weekend we setup badly.

You've challenged that opinion - you've did so by excusing any style by saying Bournemouth are just the better team. They are. But it's no excuse for not giving yourself the best opportunity to compete.

And if you're going to excuse the defeat as Bournemouth are just the better team, then by bringing Dyche into the equation when you did nothing but slate him for losing Bournemouth doesn't really support your argument. I mean, style doesn't matter according to you, they're just better.

I Never brought dyche/bournemouth into it. Just bournemouth.
I brought you dying on that sean dyche hill after when you arrogantly replied you dont need to be told anything.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

I Never brought dyche/bournemouth into it. Just bournemouth.
I brought you dying on that sean dyche hill after when you arrogantly replied you dont need to be told anything.

You did;

A few comments from players suggesting we got it wrong in how we setup/tried to play. They're not wrong, they know we can't/shouldn't try and play out the back.



Hopefully it's lesson learned for Moyes.

We've played every style against them this season and lost all 3. Probably a lesson for Eddie Howe and Nuno aswell who they've wiped the floor with recently. And before that pep and arteta.
They're a team ive noticed who are not that shabby at adapting in game.
Just a better side. We're not the first to find that out.

Most of the league are.

And you don't need to tell me Bournemouth are better than us, I was in the minority routinely making that point earlier in the season. And making points like this last month;



... All the more reason then to not setup as we did. Even if it was a weakened Bournemouth team in the cup.

You were also in the minority telling us on here that Dyche was keeping the wolves from the door and to be thankful.
You might want to step down off that high horse lone ranger.

I just went with it, and it's made you look a little silly.

According to you - style was everything from 87 minutes when it was Dyche.

According to you - style doesn't matter now because Bournemouth are just better.

 

[Lanolin]

I am. How is the ball getting to the winger?

Eh? I'm really not following what you're on about at all here. The point was Branthwaite was talking about us 'being more direct' - ie not, as @NathDogg put it above 'fannying about'. In the first half on saturday we we were attempting to pass the ball around in our own half, often between the keeper and the centre halves. Anything that gets the ball forward quicker than that is being more direct, you don't have to be launching the ball 60 yards to be direct, it just means looking to get it forward more quickly. Branthwaite was literally there, doing it and listening to the instructions given by the manager. Suggesting that he is wrong in his assessment of what happened and you're right is...ambitious.

 

[Gilbert..]

You did;









I just went with it, and it's made you look a little silly.

According to you - style was everything from 87 minutes when it was Dyche.

According to you - style doesn't matter now because Bournemouth are just better.

where is me quoting dyche and bournemouth in my original reply lol. You do all this highlighting stuff and its just waffle.