David Moyes - Taking a knife to a gunfight at West Ham, Part 2

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JobForTheMoyes said:
Tripe. We played some great stuff those last couple of seasons. He was overcautious at times, but he definitely outperformed his resources by a fair margin. Wasn't he pretty much on a zero net spend when he left after 11 years?

Winning trophies is not a fair barometer of success when you are competing with clubs with far more money (Arsenal, RS, Man Utd, Chelsea)
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Winning trophies is absolutely a barometer of success when you are manager of a club for 11 years. When you get to finals and semi finals and throw them away.

He did assemble a good team but what exactly did it achieve? We didn't win anything , we didn't achieve anything, we barely even challenged the top 4 in 11 years.

Moyes wasn't a manager who had a couple of years and swanned off to united. He had 11 years here and achieved nothing whatsoever. Even Martinez broke Moyes points total the year after he left. Martinez got to semi finals like Moyes did. All in nearly a quarter of the time.

Moyes did a great job but he didn't achieve anything , he didn't win anything and he left us with the proud honour of simply not relegating us. If that is the level that we aspire to , best of the rest and no trophies then that's why us sitting mid table is where we deserve to be.

We are allowed to say he did a good job but was ultimately the reason for his own failure. Top teams demand success within a short space of time, if 11 years and nothing is good enough for Everton then we really have lost our identity
 
Kenshin said:
Winning trophies is absolutely a barometer of success when you are manager of a club for 11 years. When you get to finals and semi finals and throw them away.

He did assemble a good team but what exactly did it achieve? We didn't win anything , we didn't achieve anything, we barely even challenged the top 4 in 11 years.

Moyes wasn't a manager who had a couple of years and swanned off to united. He had 11 years here and achieved nothing whatsoever. Even Martinez broke Moyes points total the year after he left. Martinez got to semi finals like Moyes did. All in nearly a quarter of the time.

Moyes did a great job but he didn't achieve anything , he didn't win anything and he left us with the proud honour of simply not relegating us. If that is the level that we aspire to , best of the rest and no trophies then that's why us sitting mid table is where we deserve to be.

We are allowed to say he did a good job but was ultimately the reason for his own failure. Top teams demand success within a short space of time, if 11 years and nothing is good enough for Everton then we really have lost our identity
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Its a bit easier when you inherit the other bloke's team. We certainly were not on the same level when Bobby left!

I take your points, but it is a bit harsh. Barely anyone won anything in the Sky 4 era, that was not part of the club. It is a shame Moyes was not around to benefit from the Moshiri money. I doubt it would have been squandered like it has.
 
Kenshin said:
A long had argument but he did assemble a fantastic team or two.

And did nothing with them.

When you build a great team and send them off to fear the other team you aren't ever going to achieve anything. That's why United sacked him, because the culture shock of going from reigning champs to fearing the likes of West ham when they were beating them was not what the players wanted to hear.

You could have given Moyes Ronaldo Messi and Zidane and he still would have had us defending our 18 yard box on a 1-0. He still would have set up to avoid defeat away at the big 4 and we still would have underachieved.
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I recall everyone being more than happy when we were regularly qualifying for Europe.
 
street end said:
I recall everyone being more than happy when we were regularly qualifying for Europe.
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That was then.

You can't just look back on our history with rose tinted glasses and say what about this or that.

At the time it was great because we had what? 20 years of mediocrity in the league , relegation battles and the rest of it. So it made a lovely change from that.

Subjectively we achieved nothing in that time however both on and off the pitch. That's the reality of it , Moyes did a great job but ultimately failed in achieving anything.
 
Kenshin said:
That was then.

You can't just look back on our history with rose tinted glasses and say what about this or that.

At the time it was great because we had what? 20 years of mediocrity in the league , relegation battles and the rest of it. So it made a lovely change from that.

Subjectively we achieved nothing in that time however both on and off the pitch. That's the reality of it , Moyes did a great job but ultimately failed in achieving anything.
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Depends on your definition of achievement. Did he in his first season stop us going down, yes. Did he make us in to a team regularly qualify for Europe, yes. Did he sign some of the better players we have had over the last 15 years, yes... Cahill, Arteta, lescoff, jags, Baines, pienaar, Coleman, stones. There are others.
I could go on.

Did he win silverware, no, but doesn’t mean he didn’t achieve anything.
 
street end said:
Depends on your definition of achievement. Did he in his first season stop us going down, yes. Did he make us in to a team regularly qualify for Europe, yes. Did he sign some of the better players we have had over the last 15 years, yes... Cahill, Arteta, lescoff, jags, Baines, pienaar, Coleman, stones. There are others.
I could go on.

Did he win silverware, no, but doesn’t mean he didn’t achieve anything.
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Just nothing that came in silver with a little medal in a box
 
Kenshin said:
Winning trophies is absolutely a barometer of success when you are manager of a club for 11 years. When you get to finals and semi finals and throw them away.

He did assemble a good team but what exactly did it achieve? We didn't win anything , we didn't achieve anything, we barely even challenged the top 4 in 11 years.

Moyes wasn't a manager who had a couple of years and swanned off to united. He had 11 years here and achieved nothing whatsoever. Even Martinez broke Moyes points total the year after he left. Martinez got to semi finals like Moyes did. All in nearly a quarter of the time.

Moyes did a great job but he didn't achieve anything , he didn't win anything and he left us with the proud honour of simply not relegating us. If that is the level that we aspire to , best of the rest and no trophies then that's why us sitting mid table is where we deserve to be.

We are allowed to say he did a good job but was ultimately the reason for his own failure. Top teams demand success within a short space of time, if 11 years and nothing is good enough for Everton then we really have lost our identity
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How many semifinals was Moyes in? There was one final, and Chelsea should have won more comfortably (ball yards over the line to make it 3-1). Second half we had one header from Saha and that was it.

He threw away many league games by being his usual negative, cautious self, but I can’t recall him doing so in Cups. Cup runs were scarce under him. In Europe knocked out on pens in the quarters was the best in that.

Moyes got one bite at a trophy and Chelsea were far too good on the day. The semi Man U rested quite a few players (think they were on for a treble that year, no Ronaldo, Rooney or Giggs...remember a young Danny Welbeck playing), so we capitalised on that via pens.

There was no real what could have beens under Moyes...no “If only that had gone our way” type thing. There was no “we’re knocking at the door and eventually we’ll get one over the line”. He’s a trophy-less manager because he’s a dour, humdrum manager whose results matched his ability. The only real unlucky moment I can recall is the Collina farce.

As you’ve alluded to with Martinez, had he got the same time as Moyes a lot more would have been achieved...possibly a pot or two. Despite his misplaced use of terms like “incredible”, he’s a more aspirational, expansive manager than Moyes.
 
artetas_biggest_fan said:
How many semifinals was Moyes in? There was one final, and Chelsea should have won more comfortably (ball yards over the line to make it 3-1). Second half we had one header from Saha and that was it.

He threw away many league games by being his usual negative, cautious self, but I can’t recall him doing so in Cups. Cup runs were scarce under him. In Europe knocked out on pens in the quarters was the best in that.

Moyes got one bite at a trophy and Chelsea were far too good on the day. The semi Man U rested quite a few players (think they were on for a treble that year, no Ronaldo, Rooney or Giggs...remember a young Danny Welbeck playing), so we capitalised on that via pens.

There was no real what could have beens under Moyes...no “If only that had gone our way” type thing. He’s a dour, humdrum manager whose results matched his ability. The only real unlucky moment I can recall is the Collina farce.

As you’ve alluded to with Martinez, had he got the same time as Moyes a lot more would have been achieved...possibly a pot or two. Despite his misplaced use of terms like “incredible”, he’s a more aspirational, expansive manager than Moyes.
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Vs Chelsea league cup semi final 2008? 1-0 down , second leg , Chelsea man down and we lost.

Vs Liverpool 2012? Sorry my memory is shot on that one. 1-0 up, defended second half and inevitably lost the game.

I'd say they were two bottle jobs by Moyes. Two games for the taking and we lost both by being negative.
 
Kenshin said:
Vs Chelsea league cup semi final 2008? 1-0 down , second leg , Chelsea man down and we lost.

Vs Liverpool 2012? Sorry my memory is shot on that one. 1-0 up, defended second half and inevitably lost the game.

I'd say they were two bottle jobs by Moyes. Two games for the taking and we lost both by being negative.
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So when we lost similar games with Martinez, was that negativity?
 
Minimeister said:
So when we lost similar games with Martinez, was that negativity?
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That was terrible management mate at that point. All we had to do was not concede 2 (or was it 3?) Against city and we kept on attacking .

The united semi it was clear the team went out second half and played against the manager. We played completely differently than we had under Martinez that season for those 45 minutes when the players realised they had to do it themselves.
 
The binman chronicles said:
Another season of Moyes probably makes it even more interesting. I can't wait to see how it all turns out.

It's not going to end well though.
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I think he will do well there. He’s already saved them from relegation twice, and he will have them safe and mid-table next season imo.
 
Dymak said:
I think he will do well there. He’s already saved them from relegation twice, and he will have them safe and mid-table next season imo.
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Yeah I reckon so too. That midfielder they have just gone from loan to perma with looks a good player.

He would have taken us down if he'd come in instead of Ancellotti though, I genuinely believe that. It would have signified that we had given up.
 
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