David Moyes - Taking a knife to a gunfight at West Ham, Part 2

[davek]

LOL, yeah sure.

so continuing the same line of thought, Martinez taught them "what" to finish in the bottom half two years running even with Moshiri's millions? Taught them to forget passing? "Dis-association" football?

Let's not forget that currently bobby martinez has won JACK with the talented bunch that is the Belgium men's national football team. So he must really be teaching them something out of the world to not win anything.

As I have mentioned somewhere else, what we really needed at the time was a mix of Moyes practicality and Martinez devil-may-car attitude, which is a pipe dream I know. With Moyes we had solidity and reliability, with Martinez we had excitement and "fingernails chewed off" scenario.

I would take the reliability of Moyes any day over whatever Martinez was offering.

I will repeat again what I have been saying. It was a right time for Moyes to leave us as he was getting into a comfort zone with us, but that does not mean he is someone that I hate. Neither is my perception changed that he is an excellent manager who continues to excel in the right frame of scenarios.

He's won more than Moyes ever will.

Martinez is a cup winner and Belgium's greatest ever manager; Moyes has won f.a. and is famous for destroying the greatest club in PL history in one single season.

 

[davek]

Martinez is a big part of the reason the club is in the state it is in today. Had Moyes still been in charge when Moshiri’s money came on the scene he would have built on the very professional foundations he had laid down.

Nonsense. Martinez handed Everton a profit on to Everton with his dealings. He cant be paced in the same category of the spendthrifts who followed.

 

[wandyr79]

He's won more than Moyes ever will.

Martinez is a cup winner and Belgium's greatest ever manager; Moyes has won f.a. and is famous for destroying the greatest club in PL history in one single season.

I think you are being hyperbolic with the 'famous', I don't think I have heard him mentioned in the Utd job for a very long time but you know that, he went in there with a slightly wrong attitude but the players attitudes certainly didn't help things and you could have the 2nd greatest manager come in after Ferguson and would probably be seen as a failure.

Also, one FA cup is obviously more than Moyes but it is a great leap to say it is a 'wow, that is a much greater record' moment, like you are implying.

Different styles but they are not too far apart, I would have Moyes over Martinez just because he has a bit more longevity in his style. As somebody said, we saw a wide range of playing styles under Moyes and in different circumstances there may have been a much richer outcome in trophies and/or CL qualification. I don't think we can say that Martinez was ever going to get us to where Moyes had us regularly, his style was found out and, apart from one game against Arsenal, he just refused to believe this and adapt it, to keep teams guessing.

 

[davek]

Are you saying all the players were really old with one exception? If so, you have now certainly lost your mind completely.

I have mentioned a lot that I agree that the first Martinez season was fantastic (it is hard not too and I doubt many would disagree) and an improvement on the last couple of stale(ish) seasons under Moyes, however, let us then consider the next 2 seasons shall we. Where we finished in the bottom half twice, so that is 2 years out of 3 finishing 11th, Moyes finished in the bottom half 3 out of 11 years. Now if anybody took a dads army and rejuvenated an Everton set up I believe that was Moyes.

The easy argument is that Martinez was starting to mould his own team then and failed miserably.

Oh dear.

Just before he left Moyes himself told the BBC:

David Moyes says there is a big rebuilding job needed at Everton to add younger players to his "ageing team".

The Toffees are sixth in the Premier League, four points off the European places, ahead of Saturday's visit of struggling Queens Park Rangers.
And manager Moyes thinks at least five new players will be needed if European football is secured for next season.
"I do think there is a big rebuilding job to go on. We have a little bit of an ageing team," he said.
Moyes, who is out of contract at the end of the season, admits the impending departure of veteran Phil Neville has highlighted the task ahead for the club to remain competitive.
Former England international Neville, 36, revealed on Tuesday he would be leaving Goodison Park at the end of the season to prolong his playing career.
"With Phil going, that is a big piece of the jigsaw which will leave and, if we make Europe, we are going to have to find a way of bringing in five or six players because of the way your squad is affected," said Moyes.
"We have not invested an awful lot over the last five or six years so we have to now be looking to see how we do that, how we get the team moving forward and get some younger players in as well as developing our own.


"That is the hard bit. We have a few players in their 30s and we have to start looking to replace them but supporters also want us to continue playing at the top of the league. “Phil has been great for Everton, a terrific player and captain”


"It is a tough act for us at the moment because we are trying to get that balance of keeping up at the top end of the league and obviously having to try to change over the age group of players we have." Moyes admits he would have liked to have kept Neville, who will have a coaching role with England Under-21s at this summer's European Championship, at Goodison beyond the summer. "If Phil wanted to stay I would certainly be delighted to have him on the staff because he has a great feel around the players and understands the game very well but he is hoping to play a bit longer. He has been great for Everton, a terrific player and captain and someone who we will greatly miss because his influence around the club is really special."

That's unfortunate for you isn't it?

 

[Thomasc]

He's won more than Moyes ever will.

Martinez is a cup winner and Belgium's greatest ever manager; Moyes has won f.a. and is famous for destroying the greatest club in PL history in one single season.

He’s not even as good as Gareth Southgate at international level.

 

[davek]

I think you are being hyperbolic with the 'famous', I don't think I have heard him mentioned in the Utd job for a very long time but you know that, he went in there with a slightly wrong attitude but the players attitudes certainly didn't help things and you could have the 2nd greatest manager come in after Ferguson and would probably be seen as a failure.

Also, one FA cup is obviously more than Moyes but it is a great leap to say it is a 'wow, that is a much greater record' moment, like you are implying.

Different styles but they are not too far apart, I would have Moyes over Martinez just because he has a bit more longevity in his style. As somebody said, we saw a wide range of playing styles under Moyes and in different circumstances there may have been a much richer outcome in trophies and/or CL qualification. I don't think we can say that Martinez was ever going to get us to where Moyes had us regularly, his style was found out and, apart from one game against Arsenal, he just refused to believe this and adapt it, to keep teams guessing.

He killed Man Utd, one of the greatest teams in Europe.

That is his legacy.

 

[Thomasc]

Oh dear.

Just before he left Moyes himself told the BBC:

David Moyes says there is a big rebuilding job needed at Everton to add younger players to his "ageing team".

The Toffees are sixth in the Premier League, four points off the European places, ahead of Saturday's visit of struggling Queens Park Rangers.
And manager Moyes thinks at least five new players will be needed if European football is secured for next season.
"I do think there is a big rebuilding job to go on. We have a little bit of an ageing team," he said.
Moyes, who is out of contract at the end of the season, admits the impending departure of veteran Phil Neville has highlighted the task ahead for the club to remain competitive.
Former England international Neville, 36, revealed on Tuesday he would be leaving Goodison Park at the end of the season to prolong his playing career.
"With Phil going, that is a big piece of the jigsaw which will leave and, if we make Europe, we are going to have to find a way of bringing in five or six players because of the way your squad is affected," said Moyes.
"We have not invested an awful lot over the last five or six years so we have to now be looking to see how we do that, how we get the team moving forward and get some younger players in as well as developing our own.


"That is the hard bit. We have a few players in their 30s and we have to start looking to replace them but supporters also want us to continue playing at the top of the league. “Phil has been great for Everton, a terrific player and captain”


"It is a tough act for us at the moment because we are trying to get that balance of keeping up at the top end of the league and obviously having to try to change over the age group of players we have." Moyes admits he would have liked to have kept Neville, who will have a coaching role with England Under-21s at this summer's European Championship, at Goodison beyond the summer. "If Phil wanted to stay I would certainly be delighted to have him on the staff because he has a great feel around the players and understands the game very well but he is hoping to play a bit longer. He has been great for Everton, a terrific player and captain and someone who we will greatly miss because his influence around the club is really special."

That's unfortunate for you isn't it?

I feel this is more unfortunate for you

 

[PhoenixFirebird]

He's won more than Moyes ever will.

Martinez is a cup winner and Belgium's greatest ever manager; Moyes has won f.a. and is famous for destroying the greatest club in PL history in one single season.

I literally, not figuratively, but literally went ROFLMAO when I read "Belgium's greatest ever manager". Seriously!!! You live there dude (I mean the cuckoo land, not Belgium).

So Martinez is greatest ever manager even though he has won jackssss with the richest talent pool ever available to Belgium, but Moyes is not because he has won nothing. You really are an ixixt if you believe your word-salad.

Sidebar to all who are not named davek: He is daft, isn't he? He could be a troll as well, but I am leaning towards daft.

 

[davek]

I literally, not figuratively, but literally went ROFLMAO when I read "Belgium's greatest ever manager". Seriously!!! You live there dude (I mean the cuckoo land, not Belgium).

So Martinez is greatest ever manager even though he has won jackssss with the richest talent pool ever available to Belgium, but Moyes is not because he has won nothing. You really are an ixixt if you believe your word-salad.

Sidebar to all who are not named davek: He is daft, isn't he? He could be a troll as well, but I am leaning towards daft.

You literally did that?

That's strange.

Martinez IS their most successful manager with the best win rate and highest place finish in a World Cup.

LITERALLY...to use your preferred word.

 

[wandyr79]

Oh dear.

Just before he left Moyes himself told the BBC:

David Moyes says there is a big rebuilding job needed at Everton to add younger players to his "ageing team".

The Toffees are sixth in the Premier League, four points off the European places, ahead of Saturday's visit of struggling Queens Park Rangers.
And manager Moyes thinks at least five new players will be needed if European football is secured for next season.
"I do think there is a big rebuilding job to go on. We have a little bit of an ageing team," he said.
Moyes, who is out of contract at the end of the season, admits the impending departure of veteran Phil Neville has highlighted the task ahead for the club to remain competitive.
Former England international Neville, 36, revealed on Tuesday he would be leaving Goodison Park at the end of the season to prolong his playing career.
"With Phil going, that is a big piece of the jigsaw which will leave and, if we make Europe, we are going to have to find a way of bringing in five or six players because of the way your squad is affected," said Moyes.
"We have not invested an awful lot over the last five or six years so we have to now be looking to see how we do that, how we get the team moving forward and get some younger players in as well as developing our own.


"That is the hard bit. We have a few players in their 30s and we have to start looking to replace them but supporters also want us to continue playing at the top of the league. “Phil has been great for Everton, a terrific player and captain”


"It is a tough act for us at the moment because we are trying to get that balance of keeping up at the top end of the league and obviously having to try to change over the age group of players we have." Moyes admits he would have liked to have kept Neville, who will have a coaching role with England Under-21s at this summer's European Championship, at Goodison beyond the summer. "If Phil wanted to stay I would certainly be delighted to have him on the staff because he has a great feel around the players and understands the game very well but he is hoping to play a bit longer. He has been great for Everton, a terrific player and captain and someone who we will greatly miss because his influence around the club is really special."

That's unfortunate for you isn't it?

Not really, I didn't doubt that there were older players in the squad bit it certainly could not be called a 'Dad's Army'. He says that they needed 5 players 'if they make Europe', again, not really much different from any side, regardless of ages of players.

You like to coin phrases that you think make you look clever and insightful when in fact it is just childish. Like this new one of 'killing' clubs (here and with re: Koeman, although I don't disagree with the sentiment regarding Koeman but it still a bit ham fisted over the top).

Just look at the phrasing in that article

"ageing team" - Spot the air quotes

little bit of an ageing team - Not really implying a 'Dad's Army' is it

few players in their 30's - Again, not really, 'We have to replace them now' comment.

I get that there was a rebuilding job and hence why the last couple of seasons went a bit stale but I call out the over the top soundbites you come up with to try and make it a more dramatic situation than it really was.

Again, Martinez did brilliantly in the first season but as soon as he started to bring in his own players it all failed and that is where we should be looking at, along with that first season, when comparing Moyes and Martinez at Everton. Martinez failed more than he succeeded, that is an undoubtable truth.

 

[Thomasc]

When you take the international stuff out

Moyes best ever season in the PL - 4th

Martinez best ever season in the PL - 5th

there’s not much else to say really is there?

Moyes also had several 5th and 6th place finishes, Martinez’s 2nd best season in the PL 11th.

Yes Martinez won an FA cup against all odds, but that did used to happen, it rarely does any more.
It merely puts him in the list of other greats such as - Laurie McMenemy, Bobby Gould, Bob Stokoe and John Sillett.

He’s also failed to win an international tournament with apparently the best squad in the competition for the last 2 tournaments.

These are all facts as our new manager would say.

 

[davek]

Not really, I didn't doubt that there were older players in the squad bit it certainly could not be called a 'Dad's Army'. He says that they needed 5 players 'if they make Europe', again, not really much different from any side, regardless of ages of players.

You like to coin phrases that you think make you look clever and insightful when in fact it is just childish. Like this new one of 'killing' clubs (here and with re: Koeman, although I don't disagree with the sentiment regarding Koeman but it still a bit ham fisted over the top).

Just look at the phrasing in that article

"ageing team" - Spot the air quotes

little bit of an ageing team - Not really implying a 'Dad's Army' is it

few players in their 30's - Again, not really, 'We have to replace them now' comment.

I get that there was a rebuilding job and hence why the last couple of seasons went a bit stale but I call out the over the top soundbites you come up with to try and make it a more dramatic situation than it really was.

Again, Martinez did brilliantly in the first season but as soon as he started to bring in his own players it all failed and that is where we should be looking at, along with that first season, when comparing Moyes and Martinez at Everton. Martinez failed more than he succeeded, that is an undoubtable truth.

"I do think there is a big rebuilding job to go on."

His words, not mine. How is repeating that me being dramatic?

 

[wandyr79]

"I do think there is a big rebuilding job to go on."

His words, not mine. How is repeating that me being dramatic?

'Dad's Army' being a soundbite, that is why. Yes, he said 'big' once but all the other points to a normal rebuilding job that a lot of teams go through when aspiring to play more games in the coming seasons.

As I have said, I am not going completely the opposite of what you are trying to say, which I believe is that Moyes left Martinez with a lot of over the hill, past it players.

Whether a was big rebuilding or the 5 players that were needed to come in to be able to compete in more games (if we qualified for Europe), also in his words. Personally think there is a bit of contradiction in that quote from Moyes which enables it to be construed from different sides of the argument but I see more of an 'adjustment' than a 'complete overhaul' of a 'Dad's Army'.

In his 1st season Martinez made small adjustments to the tactics, which is the norm. It very much looked like he left the defensive tactics alone and focused on attacking and that did improve, for that one season. In the second and third where he had more and more of his stamp on the team, more and more of his players, he failed. Would Moyes have finished 5th in that season, very much a possibility given his previous finishing positions, would Moyes have finished 11th the next 2 seasons, I think that is less likely.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

You literally did that?

That's strange.

Martinez IS their most successful manager with the best win rate and highest place finish in a World Cup.

LITERALLY...to use your preferred word.

Guy Thys is their most successful manager

Reached the World Cup Semi Finals just as Martinez did and also reached a European Championships Final, whilst Martinez hasn't got them past the Quarter Final stage by comparison

I'm sure you'll make some ham-fisted argument about how that Final doesn't count as much as Martinez scraping past Japan in 2018 or some such nonsense, because that's what you do, but it cannot be denied that Thys was a better manager for Belgium and the only way Martinez will ever surpass him is by winning a pot

Win % doesn't count for much if you've nothing to show for it

 

[PhoenixFirebird]

You literally did that?

That's strange.

Martinez IS their most successful manager with the best win rate and highest place finish in a World Cup.

LITERALLY...to use your preferred word.

So, winning a cup does not really matter to you. And all that drivel that you have been throwing about Moyes not winning anything is just hot-air is it? To be called "greatest-ever" a manager has to be most-ever at your preferred choice of parameters.

At club level, Martinez winning percent 39.2% Moyes 42.5. So by YOUR preferred logic Moyes is a better club manager, surely.