Current Affairs Coronavirus Thread - Serious stuff !!!

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LinekersLegs. I thought Deborah Birx was excellent. I have serious reservations about the Presidents grasp on the situation on the ground.

If as he suggested that fatalities are as low as 0.9 % and if the anti-malarial cure is a wonder drug, that would be fantastic news. Unfortunately I suspect he's talking out of his arse. I suspect that testing kits are at a premium and we really have no idea of the problem. You can't judge mortality rates unless people are tested!!!

I sincerely hope I'm wrong. What I did hear is, he's going to wash his hands and place the burden on state governors. Saying that, thank the lord we have experts around him, even if he needs to be told 4 times. I trust they know what is going on.

Unfortunately my view is that it won't be the President who get's us through this but the American people. And that comes as no surprise.
 
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Uk Dr did a Reddit AMA, its VERY damning.

I'm sad to say that I do have the details, and there has been intense discussion about this over the past weeks. To answer your question: "herd immunity" would have been a beneficial outcome to slowing virus growth to a prolonged period of time. It was not a primary outcome.

That said, the official policy was wholly wrong and when all the dust has settled, when all the costs and lives have been counted, people have to make their governments accountable.

I'll tell you what happened in the UK.

Over the past decade, eminent figures in public health developed complex models that would help inform the UK response to a pandemic. The response plan would allow slow spread through a population and a number of deaths that would be deemed acceptable in relation to low economic impact. Timing of population measures such as social distancing would be taken, not early, but at a times deemed to have maximal psychological impact. Measures would be taken that could protect the most vulnerable, and most of the people who got the virus would hopefully survive. Herd immunity would beneficially emerge at the end of this, and restrictions could relax. This was a ground-breaking approach compared to suppressing epidemics. It was an approach that could revolutionise the way we handled epidemics. Complex modelling is a new science, and this was cutting edge.

But a model is only ever as good as the assumptions you build it upon. The UK plan was based on models with an assumption that any new pandemic would be like an old one, like flu. And it also carried a huge flaw - there was no accounting for the highly significant variables of ventilators and critical care beds that are key to maintaining higher survival numbers (https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...s-show-no-planning-ventilators-event-pandemic).

So, come 2020 and COVID-19 causes disaster in China, Iran and Italy. Epidemiologists and doctors from around the world observe, and learn valuable lessons:

  1. the virus is insidious with a long incubation, any population actions you take will only have an effect weeks later
  2. the virus spreads remarkably quickly and effectively
  3. the virus causes an unusually large proportion of patients to require invasive ventilatory support
  4. early large scale testing, and social distancing measures, are effective at stopping exponential growth
  5. stopping exponential growth is VITAL to preventing your critical care systems from being overwhelmed.
Everyone in the world could see these things. But despite this, very few governments chose to act.

The UK did the opposite of acting. In an act of what I see as sheer arrogance, they chose to do nothing, per the early stages of their disaster plan. There was some initial contact tracing, but this stopped when it was clear that there was significant community spread and exponential growth. And after this? They did not ramp up testing capabilities. They did not encourage social distancing. They did not boost PPE supply, or plan for surge capacity. They ignored advice from the WHO, public health experts in other country; epidemiologists, scientists and doctors in their own. I can tell you with certainty now that they did not even collect regular statistics for how many COVID patients were being admitted to critical care in the UK. They did nothing.

What were they thinking? Maybe that what had happened in China, and was happening in Italy, couldn't possibly happen in the UK, right? It was impossible. The persisted with the original plan with no modification.

Well COVID-19 is not flu. That is perfectly clear. And it was clear that the UK numbers were following, exponentially, the same trend as Italy. But still the government and their advisers stuck to their guns and put out reassuring messages. I would ask here - why did they still think we would be different?

Finally, a team at Imperial informing the government's response put up-to-date COVID-19 data into the historical models that the UK plan was based on (https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/im...-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf), and predicted in a best case scenario 250,000 deaths and excess of 8x surge capacity of UK intensive cares. They concluded that our approach was wrong, and that "Epidemic suppression is the only viable strategy at the current time".

Where are we now?

  1. The government has instituted a number of measures that they previously called "unscientific", but has not mandated them.
  2. We are far, far into the exponential curve both in deaths and critical care numbers, and there is at least two weeks more growth until any of the half-hearted measures taken might kick in.
  3. We do not have sufficient testing capability for even hospital patients, who sometimes wait days for a test result. There are not enough tests for anyone in the community, or any healthcare workers who might have symptoms.
  4. Hospitals are scrambling to produce surge capacity, and several smaller hospitals in London are now overwhelmed with COVID and out of ventilators.
  5. There is clearly not enough PPE in the country and we are rushing to secure supplies.
Don't believe the UK government propaganda when they say that they are only advancing along the same plan at a faster pace. It is total bollocks. Their plan was wrong, kaput, totally broken. They chose to perform an experiment on an entire population, a trial of 'new epidemic mitigation strategy in UK' vs 'epidemic suppression in rest of the world'. They didn't listen to other experts from all over the world, and in this arrogance they did not observe the lessons or data that was there, plain to see. They have backtracked completely and are now doing what most world public health experts and what the WHO asked them to do in the first place. They've wasted a month, at least.

Will they suffer? Hell no. It will be the vulnerable in the population, the unlucky young, and the medical staff at the front line.

When the final counts return in months or a years time, don't let them get away with it.

 
Uk Dr did a Reddit AMA, its VERY damning.

I'm sad to say that I do have the details, and there has been intense discussion about this over the past weeks. To answer your question: "herd immunity" would have been a beneficial outcome to slowing virus growth to a prolonged period of time. It was not a primary outcome.

That said, the official policy was wholly wrong and when all the dust has settled, when all the costs and lives have been counted, people have to make their governments accountable.

I'll tell you what happened in the UK.

Over the past decade, eminent figures in public health developed complex models that would help inform the UK response to a pandemic. The response plan would allow slow spread through a population and a number of deaths that would be deemed acceptable in relation to low economic impact. Timing of population measures such as social distancing would be taken, not early, but at a times deemed to have maximal psychological impact. Measures would be taken that could protect the most vulnerable, and most of the people who got the virus would hopefully survive. Herd immunity would beneficially emerge at the end of this, and restrictions could relax. This was a ground-breaking approach compared to suppressing epidemics. It was an approach that could revolutionise the way we handled epidemics. Complex modelling is a new science, and this was cutting edge.

But a model is only ever as good as the assumptions you build it upon. The UK plan was based on models with an assumption that any new pandemic would be like an old one, like flu. And it also carried a huge flaw - there was no accounting for the highly significant variables of ventilators and critical care beds that are key to maintaining higher survival numbers (https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...s-show-no-planning-ventilators-event-pandemic).

So, come 2020 and COVID-19 causes disaster in China, Iran and Italy. Epidemiologists and doctors from around the world observe, and learn valuable lessons:

  1. the virus is insidious with a long incubation, any population actions you take will only have an effect weeks later
  2. the virus spreads remarkably quickly and effectively
  3. the virus causes an unusually large proportion of patients to require invasive ventilatory support
  4. early large scale testing, and social distancing measures, are effective at stopping exponential growth
  5. stopping exponential growth is VITAL to preventing your critical care systems from being overwhelmed.
Everyone in the world could see these things. But despite this, very few governments chose to act.

The UK did the opposite of acting. In an act of what I see as sheer arrogance, they chose to do nothing, per the early stages of their disaster plan. There was some initial contact tracing, but this stopped when it was clear that there was significant community spread and exponential growth. And after this? They did not ramp up testing capabilities. They did not encourage social distancing. They did not boost PPE supply, or plan for surge capacity. They ignored advice from the WHO, public health experts in other country; epidemiologists, scientists and doctors in their own. I can tell you with certainty now that they did not even collect regular statistics for how many COVID patients were being admitted to critical care in the UK. They did nothing.

What were they thinking? Maybe that what had happened in China, and was happening in Italy, couldn't possibly happen in the UK, right? It was impossible. The persisted with the original plan with no modification.

Well COVID-19 is not flu. That is perfectly clear. And it was clear that the UK numbers were following, exponentially, the same trend as Italy. But still the government and their advisers stuck to their guns and put out reassuring messages. I would ask here - why did they still think we would be different?

Finally, a team at Imperial informing the government's response put up-to-date COVID-19 data into the historical models that the UK plan was based on (https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/im...-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf), and predicted in a best case scenario 250,000 deaths and excess of 8x surge capacity of UK intensive cares. They concluded that our approach was wrong, and that "Epidemic suppression is the only viable strategy at the current time".

Where are we now?

  1. The government has instituted a number of measures that they previously called "unscientific", but has not mandated them.
  2. We are far, far into the exponential curve both in deaths and critical care numbers, and there is at least two weeks more growth until any of the half-hearted measures taken might kick in.
  3. We do not have sufficient testing capability for even hospital patients, who sometimes wait days for a test result. There are not enough tests for anyone in the community, or any healthcare workers who might have symptoms.
  4. Hospitals are scrambling to produce surge capacity, and several smaller hospitals in London are now overwhelmed with COVID and out of ventilators.
  5. There is clearly not enough PPE in the country and we are rushing to secure supplies.
Don't believe the UK government propaganda when they say that they are only advancing along the same plan at a faster pace. It is total bollocks. Their plan was wrong, kaput, totally broken. They chose to perform an experiment on an entire population, a trial of 'new epidemic mitigation strategy in UK' vs 'epidemic suppression in rest of the world'. They didn't listen to other experts from all over the world, and in this arrogance they did not observe the lessons or data that was there, plain to see. They have backtracked completely and are now doing what most world public health experts and what the WHO asked them to do in the first place. They've wasted a month, at least.

Will they suffer? Hell no. It will be the vulnerable in the population, the unlucky young, and the medical staff at the front line.

When the final counts return in months or a years time, don't let them get away with it.


Thanks for posting this goat, and I don't care how many of the 'don't make it political' beauts it offends. The incredible levels of arrogance and disregard for human life from this government and their advisors should not be forgotten for a second
 
Give blood. There are desperate shortages, that's one thing we can all do. And anything that can alleviate or even hopefully mitigate should be embraced and fast-tracked. We're starting to see that. It's great news.
 
As someone who has just recently spent 8 weeks getting drunk pretty much every night, rode on motorbikes on the most dangerous roads in the world without a helmet and did all sorts of things with so many strangers, it's scary to think that I'm still more responsible than those idiots who completely ignored the advice of seemingly every medical expert in the world by congregating in large crowds at the weekend.

At least I was only a danger to myself, these idiots have put so many other people at risk and are truly deserving of slow claps.
 
Uk Dr did a Reddit AMA, its VERY damning.

I'm sad to say that I do have the details, and there has been intense discussion about this over the past weeks. To answer your question: "herd immunity" would have been a beneficial outcome to slowing virus growth to a prolonged period of time. It was not a primary outcome.

That said, the official policy was wholly wrong and when all the dust has settled, when all the costs and lives have been counted, people have to make their governments accountable.

I'll tell you what happened in the UK.

Over the past decade, eminent figures in public health developed complex models that would help inform the UK response to a pandemic. The response plan would allow slow spread through a population and a number of deaths that would be deemed acceptable in relation to low economic impact. Timing of population measures such as social distancing would be taken, not early, but at a times deemed to have maximal psychological impact. Measures would be taken that could protect the most vulnerable, and most of the people who got the virus would hopefully survive. Herd immunity would beneficially emerge at the end of this, and restrictions could relax. This was a ground-breaking approach compared to suppressing epidemics. It was an approach that could revolutionise the way we handled epidemics. Complex modelling is a new science, and this was cutting edge.

But a model is only ever as good as the assumptions you build it upon. The UK plan was based on models with an assumption that any new pandemic would be like an old one, like flu. And it also carried a huge flaw - there was no accounting for the highly significant variables of ventilators and critical care beds that are key to maintaining higher survival numbers (https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...s-show-no-planning-ventilators-event-pandemic).

So, come 2020 and COVID-19 causes disaster in China, Iran and Italy. Epidemiologists and doctors from around the world observe, and learn valuable lessons:

  1. the virus is insidious with a long incubation, any population actions you take will only have an effect weeks later
  2. the virus spreads remarkably quickly and effectively
  3. the virus causes an unusually large proportion of patients to require invasive ventilatory support
  4. early large scale testing, and social distancing measures, are effective at stopping exponential growth
  5. stopping exponential growth is VITAL to preventing your critical care systems from being overwhelmed.
Everyone in the world could see these things. But despite this, very few governments chose to act.

The UK did the opposite of acting. In an act of what I see as sheer arrogance, they chose to do nothing, per the early stages of their disaster plan. There was some initial contact tracing, but this stopped when it was clear that there was significant community spread and exponential growth. And after this? They did not ramp up testing capabilities. They did not encourage social distancing. They did not boost PPE supply, or plan for surge capacity. They ignored advice from the WHO, public health experts in other country; epidemiologists, scientists and doctors in their own. I can tell you with certainty now that they did not even collect regular statistics for how many COVID patients were being admitted to critical care in the UK. They did nothing.

What were they thinking? Maybe that what had happened in China, and was happening in Italy, couldn't possibly happen in the UK, right? It was impossible. The persisted with the original plan with no modification.

Well COVID-19 is not flu. That is perfectly clear. And it was clear that the UK numbers were following, exponentially, the same trend as Italy. But still the government and their advisers stuck to their guns and put out reassuring messages. I would ask here - why did they still think we would be different?

Finally, a team at Imperial informing the government's response put up-to-date COVID-19 data into the historical models that the UK plan was based on (https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/im...-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf), and predicted in a best case scenario 250,000 deaths and excess of 8x surge capacity of UK intensive cares. They concluded that our approach was wrong, and that "Epidemic suppression is the only viable strategy at the current time".

Where are we now?

  1. The government has instituted a number of measures that they previously called "unscientific", but has not mandated them.
  2. We are far, far into the exponential curve both in deaths and critical care numbers, and there is at least two weeks more growth until any of the half-hearted measures taken might kick in.
  3. We do not have sufficient testing capability for even hospital patients, who sometimes wait days for a test result. There are not enough tests for anyone in the community, or any healthcare workers who might have symptoms.
  4. Hospitals are scrambling to produce surge capacity, and several smaller hospitals in London are now overwhelmed with COVID and out of ventilators.
  5. There is clearly not enough PPE in the country and we are rushing to secure supplies.
Don't believe the UK government propaganda when they say that they are only advancing along the same plan at a faster pace. It is total bollocks. Their plan was wrong, kaput, totally broken. They chose to perform an experiment on an entire population, a trial of 'new epidemic mitigation strategy in UK' vs 'epidemic suppression in rest of the world'. They didn't listen to other experts from all over the world, and in this arrogance they did not observe the lessons or data that was there, plain to see. They have backtracked completely and are now doing what most world public health experts and what the WHO asked them to do in the first place. They've wasted a month, at least.

Will they suffer? Hell no. It will be the vulnerable in the population, the unlucky young, and the medical staff at the front line.

When the final counts return in months or a years time, don't let them get away with it.



Absolutely astounding that Johnson would play Russian roulette with peoples' lives and be able to continue doing so. The country cant afford Richardson stay in charge, Labour needs to put a motion of no confidence in johnson today and get rid of the buffoon and his medical and scientific herd immunity 'experts'.
 
MarcelsGoat, excellent link. I argued against "herd immunity" when it was first mooted, not because I knew the science behind it. It's because it's immoral and it lacked testing.

After reading further, the arguments for it were sketchy and weren't peer reviewed. You can't commit to a policy that will potentially cost countless lives without solid evidence. Which again should have been addressed with bi-partisan consultation.

The evidence simply wasn't there. It still isn't there.

We're dealing with a problem that was foreseen but not understood. We can't see the enemy. We simply don't know. That's the lay of the land. Regrettably, it looks like this won't be the first either.

I'm incensed that our intelligence agencies clearly warned governments back in January, the very clear and present threat posed to our society. Those warnings were ignored. Unfortunately there will be a price to pay for those decisions.

The UK last night made a decision, that Europe had already been made. How many countless lives could have been saved if that decision had of been made many weeks earlier. We'll never know.

Tonight the President re-assured the American people, that it's not all that bad, 0.9 could be effected, with people even showing no symptoms whatsoever.
And those who are infected, there's a malarial drug. I hope he's right.

The figures I've seen shows a 1000 deaths a week. 9-11, took 3000 deaths in one day. We could be looking at those figures every three days. That's possibly the numbers we could be looking at.

As I said last night, the night is darkest before the dawn and we aren't at midnight yet. Stay well and God bless.
 
Absolutely astounding that Johnson would play Russian roulette with peoples' lives and be able to continue doing so. The country cant afford Richardson stay in charge, Labour needs to put a motion of no confidence in johnson today and get rid of the buffoon and his medical and scientific herd immunity 'experts'.

Two problems with this: Labour would be portrayed as playing party politics during a national emergency and it would also lose any such vote very badly.
 
Tonight the President re-assured the American people, that it's not all that bad, 0.9 could be effected, with people even showing no symptoms whatsoever.
And those who are infected, there's a malarial drug. I hope he's right.

He did no such thing. His dementia-addled sociopathic brain gets up there and rambles on and he lies and he makes nonsense word salad every day while all his yes-men and Fox News act like nothing is wrong with him. Every time he opens his mouth the market tanks. CNN actually stopped airing his garbage, it was so bad.

He specifically made America unprepared for something like this, ignored all the intelligence, failed to act, and refuses to put large-scale actions in place. There will be tens if not hundreds of thousands of deaths that he is personally responsible for.
 
My place of work has shut as of last night, I'm only part time, gonna feel the strain now, I've been looking for full time work but can't imagine being taken on any time soon. This has turned into a nightmare financially for me. I hope we get some leeway with rent etc.
 
Also, I have a dog and live in a flat with no yard or garden, I have no choice but to take her out 4-5 times a day, I hope I don't get hassled by police.
 
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