Current Affairs Coronavirus Thread - Serious stuff !!!

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

That's not what we're debating anyway.


No. I have heavy-grade asthma, my own doc advised a wait-n-see. My own case is a bit complicated, due to all manner of potential cross-reactions & sensitivities. I can go into detail if anyone's truly interested...maybe later. Any fellow asthmatics reading this that would prefer PM you can write me anytime.

I'm not anti-vax. I've taken them for other things, I allow my son to have the usuals. With Covid-vaccines, I support anyone wanting to take them, and I understand & accept they protect the patient.

My views on defending the unvaxxed against claims they are dangerous and deserving of punishments are unrelated to my own unvaxxed status, honestly. I have a thing about creeping fascism and I see it a lot in the pandemic's response. Hence the last few pages.

So a reminder again:

The debate is if the unvaxxed represent an increased danger to society, and whether their freedoms should be curtailed.

That's been the debate the whole time.


Yes, if you mean better protected from serious illness/death.


If better means less deaths/hospitalisations, then sure. Just like it would be better if no one drank alcohol or smoked or took drugs, as that would mean less deaths from them. Better if everyone drove carefully all the time, reducing the risk of traffic deaths. Better if no one got into fights, we could ban casual sex to prevent HIV-spread, we could put the suicidal in asylums to prevent self-harm, or all manner of other things we can do better to reduce the risk of people dying.

Or...we accept the world can be messy, chaotic and risky. With new risks arriving all the time. We accept risks if it means we have freedom-of-choice. And that's why we have a tax/NI-system which pays for medical-care structures to help people, regardless of how they got into their predicament.


Educate the people that taking the vaccine is better for them. Then let them make their own choice.



I already explained it's not scientific proof as human behaviour can explain the 3:1 ratio. Any serious scientist reading this should be able to confirm that the data is inconclusive (if the conclusion is to be that the unvaxxed are more of a danger to others than the vaxxed).


I have considered it, I explained it already: human behaviour may be the cause of the 3:1 ratio (not the vaccine).


It's not a just-so, it's a reasonable assumptive real-world explanation based on real data like the demographics of the vaxxed vx the unvaxxed.

We'd need to prove that the vaccinated physically infect less people than the unvaccinated, to prove that we need all else being equal (lab conditions).

We haven't yet had such a study.

We have, however, already had lab-condition studies showing us that the viral loads of the vaccinated are equal to the loads of the unvaccinated. A reasonable assumption here is that the infection rates may also be equal.

Inconclusive then.



That's a misinterpretation of the 3:1 ratio. It depends on the person: a vaccinated 30-year old party-goer will more likely get infected than an unvaxxed 50-year old spinster, as the 30-year old will more likely come into viral contact. But as the majority of unvaxxed are more your 18-30 sociable lot, and the majority of vaxxed are more your 40-99 quieter types...then we see where this 3:1 ratio comes from.

There's no hard evidence that the vaccine itself is responsible for the 3:1 ratio.



I didn't say there was.


That's not the debate. The debate is if the unvaxxed represent an increased danger to society, and whether their freedoms should be curtailed.

That's been the debate the whole time.




The debate is if the unvaxxed represent an increased danger to society, and whether their freedoms should be curtailed.

That's been the debate the whole time.


I've handled pretty much every post. What have I "conveniently ignored"?


What have i "deeply misunderstood"?

Hi mate, you're not very articulate are you?

No one actually understands your point.

Could you have a go at giving a concise precis for us?

Choice quotes optional.

Cheers.

 

[MikeH72]

Some in Australia seem to have lost their minds

Holy jesus

 

[Deleted member 48881]

gosh holliday fella is a lot of bore

 

[grandjoeblue]

Hi mate, you're not very articulate are you?

No one actually understands your point.

Could you have a go at giving a concise precis for us?

Choice quotes optional.

Cheers.

Simple explanation:

Doesn't want to get vaccinated so makes 100 long posts making unclear points about vaccination and 'your body, your choice'.

Quite tiresome really. You don't need a million studies on vaccination, you can quite simply go about your daily life and see that everyone is mixing with deaths still very low. If everyone had the selfish attitude of not getting vaccinated we'd probably still be under lockdown.

 

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

Simple explanation:

Doesn't want to get vaccinated so makes 100 long posts making unclear points about vaccination and 'your body, your choice'.

Quite tiresome really. You don't need a million studies on vaccination, you can quite simply go about your daily life and see that everyone is mixing with deaths still very low. If everyone had the selfish attitude of not getting vaccinated we'd probably still be under lockdown.

In the spirit of the proceedings thus far, is there a choice quotes?

 

[ste d' indica]

Hi mate, you're not very articulate are you?

No one actually understands your point.

Could you have a go at giving a concise precis for us?

Choice quotes optional.

Cheers.

Come on mate, be fair, he's done a marathon session again tonight....Its funny though, cos all my mates with toddlers, and jobs and a significant other in their lives, like he says he has, don't stay up all night arguing with strangers on the Internet. Dunno how he manages it.....

 

[Wizard]

Simple explanation:

Doesn't want to get vaccinated so makes 100 long posts making unclear points about vaccination and 'your body, your choice'.

Quite tiresome really. You don't need a million studies on vaccination, you can quite simply go about your daily life and see that everyone is mixing with deaths still very low. If everyone had the selfish attitude of not getting vaccinated we'd probably still be under lockdown.

In the spirit of the proceedings thus far, is there a choice quotes?

I have bolded the choice quote in @grandjoeblue post. Think most of us can agree with that choice quote

 

[Amw79]

I have bolded the choice quote in @grandjoeblue post. Think most of us can agree with that choice quote

I like a choice quote. Apparently it’s easier than just reading an article.

However, I prefer the pyramid of truth.

 

[Wizard]

I like a choice quote. Apparently it’s easier than just reading an article.

However, I prefer the pyramid of truth.

View attachment 136773

Stop being such an ass hat

 

[COYBL25]

I like a choice quote. Apparently it’s easier than just reading an article.

However, I prefer the pyramid of truth.

View attachment 136773

Funnily enough, that reads pretty much like the majority of Agent Orange`s posts !

 

[Wizard]

I like a choice quote. Apparently it’s easier than just reading an article.

However, I prefer the pyramid of truth.

View attachment 136773

Bottom level of the triangle. Wasn't actually calling you that mate

 

[Toffee in Jandals]

Going downhill day by day here and all because our vaccination rates were so low; and that is 100% down to the Govts "wait and see" policy.

We even stopped vaccinating when we went into lockdown, what a debacle that has been.

People have been getting texts confirming that their appointment is still on but arrive to find the centre closed. That happened to me. Managed to get a jab today, 25 minutes drive away.

Are you in Auckland mate? I’m in Christchurch. Got my first jab booked in for tomorrow ?

 

[Toffee in Jandals]

@everyone:


The key question remains: what is the evidence that the unvaxxed represent an increased danger to society, and should their freedoms be curtailed because of this evidence?
Bonus: if the vaxxed are protected (and they are) then why are they bothered what the unvaxxed do?

The answer I have so far, from all of you collectively, is: swab-tests reveal the unvaxxed-infected outnumber the vaxxed-infected by about 3:1, yes this is enough evidence to limit unvaxxed freedoms until they get vaxxed.
Bonus: the unvaxxed can get more seriously ill, and cause unneccary hospitalisations.

To which my response is: the 3:1 ratio isn't proven to be directly influenced by the vaccine. It is likely caused by human behaviour due to the unvaxxed being younger & more socially active than the vaxxed. This isn't sufficient evidence to curtail freedoms of our young generation, especially as the viral loads are proven to be equal between the vaxxed & unvaxxed.
Bonus: the vaxxed are protected, and the unvaxxed are mostly young and statistically will very rarely end up in hospital.


This is where we are...and where we will probably remain, until new knowledge comes to light.

I don’t think you understand that we all live in a society. Even putting aside the health arguments, the more unvaxxed there are, the longer the potential for our freedoms to be restricted, our jobs to be possibly threatened.

 

[cronullasharks]

You're a nob Holliday

 

[BlueInNZ]

Are you in Auckland mate? I’m in Christchurch. Got my first jab booked in for tomorrow ?

Porirua. Went to a Marae for my jab last Friday to find it closed, and a constant flow of others doing to same. Went online to book again and the next available appointment was another 3 weeks. Mrs BlueInNZ did some searching and got me my appointment today in Lower Hutt. Being a fat boy in my mid 50s I can tell you it's a real sense of relief to get the first jab.