Coleman, midfield or defense?

[billycopper]

Surely playing 3 CBs for to sure up your defence... only to then make the extra CB an inexperienced youngster, kind of defeats the point?

Not really. As I said, Liverpool used Wilson and it was no less effective. Infact, it gives the insurance to be able to blood youngsters. One thing that we do have is a wealth of young centrebacks: Duffy, Mustafi, Dier, Hammar...How are we going to get them in to the side? Send them out on loan for a season and let them spend two years on the bench with only occasional appearances in the cups?

 

[billycopper]

Well argued, but centre backs are centre backs. They'd still be have to defend, i'm not sure just throwing anyone in there would work too well.

We've played with Hibbo in the middle of a flat back four in an emergency and it's gone surprisingly well. How much secure would we be with an extra centreback next to him offering cover? Hibbo is well down the pecking order anyway. My point is that we could cover it and it would present an opportunity to bring players through without taking too much of a risk.

 

[RFUS]

Not really. As I said, Liverpool used Wilson and it was no less effective. Infact, it gives the insurance to be able to blood youngsters. One thing that we do have is a wealth of young centrebacks: Duffy, Mustafi, Dier, Hammar...How are we going to get them in to the side? Send them out on loan for a season and let them spend two years on the bench with only occasional appearances in the cups?

I don't think other clubs have to resort to playing with 3 CBs to blood young CBs.

That's a bit over the top. And quite frankly, if a young CB needs to be played alongside 2 other CBs just so he can cope, then he's probably not good enough anyway.

So yes, you do send them out on loan for a season. That's a tried and tested method. I believe Shane Duffy's dad was on here the other day, saying he thinks Shane needs to go out on loan this season.

 

[best little spaniard]

It's late now. Tomorrow, I may break out the old paint diagrams to show why 3-5-2 wont work.

 

[billycopper]

Only because he had to.

When Cahill went he changed it. When Cahill was back and just half-fit, he changed it back.

I still honestly believe, with a fully fit team, he will always go for a 4-4-1-1 with Cahill.

More than likely. I take it from another thread that you're not Cahill's biggest fan. I feel that the system I'm suggesting plays to more strengths than our current set up.

______________Howard
_______Heitinga Jagielka Distin
Coleman ___________________Baines
________Osman Fellaini Arteta
_______________Cahill
________________Saha

With my line up we could replace Cahill with Beckford playing alongside Saha without unbalancing the side. I do still feel that Cahill is important to us- he's our topscorer despite only really playing half a season- but Saha and Beckford are a much more dynamic combination. We could even play two up top and tuck Cahill in to midfield, like Kuyt for Holland, Mereiles for Portugal or Muller for Germany. The important thing is that we find a way of playing that gets the best out of as many players as possible.

 

[billycopper]

I don't think other clubs have to resort to playing with 3 CBs to blood young CBs.

That's a bit over the top. And quite frankly, if a young CB needs to be played alongside 2 other CBs just so he can cope, then he's probably not good enough anyway.

So yes, you do send them out on loan for a season. That's a tried and tested method. I believe Shane Duffy's dad was on here the other day, saying he thinks Shane needs to go out on loan this season.

We're talking about Moyes. If Duffy gets a start before 2015 I'll eat my hat. I'd play him in a 4-4-2, but the idea here is something that you can pitch to DM that he might feasibly go for.

 

[RFUS]

More than likely. I take it from another thread that you're not Cahill's biggest fan. I feel that the system I'm suggesting plays to more strengths than our current set up.

______________Howard
_______Heitinga Jagielka Distin
Coleman ___________________Baines
________Osman Fellaini Arteta
_______________Cahill
________________Saha

With my line up we could replace Cahill with Beckford playing alongside Saha without unbalancing the side. I do still feel that Cahill is important to us- he's our topscorer despite only really playing half a season- but Saha and Beckford are a much more dynamic combination. We could even play two up top and tuck Cahill in to midfield, like Kuyt for Holland, Mereiles for Portugal or Muller for Germany. The important thing is that we find a way of playing that gets the best out of as many players as possible.

That's not true, really. I love Cahill and he is a fantastic player.

But I'm also not going to ignore what I've seen with my own eyes. With him in the team earlier on in the season, sure he got a lot of goals, but it's a team game. And we as a team were at the bottom end of the table and just couldn't win a game.

We had a post-Christmas surge, however, and that coincided with Cahill going away on international duty. In the few games he did play after that, if I recall correctly, we didn't do too well in them either.

The 2 formations that worked for us last season were 4-4-2* and 4-2-3-1. That's because 4-4-2 allowed us to stretch defences with Beckford's pace, whilst having Saha utilise the space. 4-2-3-1 is where Ossie truly shined. He showed that he offers more than Cahill in an attacking midfield kind of role, as he's a truly gifted footballer, and he found a lot of space for us.

I love Cahill, but if we can't fit him into a formation which doesn't compromise the effectiveness of the team, then we shouldn't fit him in at all.






*I say 4-4-2, but it was often a 4-4-1-1 with Saha in the Cahill role. I'm just emphasising the effectiveness of having two different, out and out strikers working in tandem.

 

[billycopper]

That's not true, really. I love Cahill and he is a fantastic player.

But I'm also not going to ignore what I've seen with my own eyes. With him in the team earlier on in the season, sure he got a lot of goals, but it's a team game. And we as a team were at the bottom end of the table and just couldn't win a game.

We had a post-Christmas surge, however, and that coincided with Cahill going away on international duty. In the few games he did play after that, if I recall correctly, we didn't do too well in them either.

The 2 formations that worked for us last season were 4-4-2* and 4-2-3-1. That's because 4-4-2 allowed us to stretch defences with Beckford's pace, whilst having Saha utilise the space. 4-2-3-1 is where Ossie truly shined. He showed that he offers more than Cahill in an attacking midfield kind of role, as he's a truly gifted footballer, and he found a lot of space for us.

I love Cahill, but if we can't fit him into a formation which doesn't compromise the effectiveness of the team, then we shouldn't fit him in at all.






*I say 4-4-2, but it was often a 4-4-1-1 with Saha in the Cahill role. I'm just emphasising the effectiveness of having two different, out and out strikers working in tandem.

At the start of the season Saha was in a long barren spell, Beckford was finding his feet, Moyes hadn't twigged using Coleman in midfield and we were making our usual erratic start. This is actually turning your argument back on you about blaming one player for our shortcomings. There were, in reality, many factors. Neville switching to midfield to help protect the defence was yet another one. Our improvement in form also coincided with Fellaini getting injured, but you don't draw any conclusions there. Cahill was struggling when he returned from Qatar but, if he's such a hinderence to us, why didn't we have another dip in form once he came back in to the side?

We have quite a few players who aren't fulfilling their potential at the moment because our system doesn't suit them. Moyes needs to make adjustments to play to the strengths of Coleman, Fellaini, Arteta and Cahill in particular. He could do with making better use of Heitinga, Bily, Osman, Beckford, Anichebe and Saha too really.

 

[RFUS]

At the start of the season Saha was in a long barren spell, Beckford was finding his feet, Moyes hadn't twigged using Coleman in midfield and we were making our usual erratic start. This is actually turning your argument back on you about blaming one player for our shortcomings. There were, in reality, many factors. Neville switching to midfield to help protect the defence was yet another one. Our improvement in form also coincided with Fellaini getting injured, but you don't draw any conclusions there. Cahill was struggling when he returned from Qatar but, if he's such a hinderence to us, why didn't we have another dip in form once he came back in to the side?

We have quite a few players who aren't fulfilling their potential at the moment because our system doesn't suit them. Moyes needs to make adjustments to play to the strengths of Coleman, Fellaini, Arteta and Cahill in particular. He could do with making better use of Heitinga, Bily, Osman, Beckford, Anichebe and Saha too really.

I don't think it is turning my argument back on me, because I'm not blaming Cahill for our lack of goals. I'm blaming Moyes. He shoe horns Cahill into the side, and with that it dictates how we play and it has knock on effects for other players. For example, with Cahill in the side Ossie doesn't get to play in his preferred role, and when he got to do that this season he was incredible. The other problem is that teams just got so used to our style of play. We became predictable, and this is why teams with inferior players just sat back. They knew we'd rely on Cahill and Baines, but we had no real pace or penetration, so it was easy to defend against. And then they knew if they could defend against it, they'd have a decent chance at some point on the counter or at a set piece.

As for Fellaini getting injured, I didn't draw conclusions because he was replaced in midfield by players like Neville and Heitinga. And they are inferior players in that position who offer nothing different. The difference between Cahill and Ossie, however, is a lot bigger. Not necessarily in quality, but in what they offer and can bring to the team.

 

[Brennan]

To the people using underscores when creating little team formations, go to advanced and use the align tool. Looks a lot better, and it's easier.

 

[billycopper]

I don't think it is turning my argument back on me, because I'm not blaming Cahill for our lack of goals. I'm blaming Moyes. He shoe horns Cahill into the side, and with that it dictates how we play and it has knock on effects for other players. For example, with Cahill in the side Ossie doesn't get to play in his preferred role, and when he got to do that this season he was incredible. The other problem is that teams just got so used to our style of play. We became predictable, and this is why teams with inferior players just sat back. They knew we'd rely on Cahill and Baines, but we had no real pace or penetration, so it was easy to defend against. And then they knew if they could defend against it, they'd have a decent chance at some point on the counter or at a set piece.

As for Fellaini getting injured, I didn't draw conclusions because he was replaced in midfield by players like Neville and Heitinga. And they are inferior players in that position who offer nothing different. The difference between Cahill and Ossie, however, is a lot bigger. Not necessarily in quality, but in what they offer and can bring to the team.

To an extent I agree with you, but I'll have to take issue just to keep up appearances. You're saying that one player's influence on our style of play is detrimental to the team. That's exactly what I said about Distin that you pulled me up on. I believe that we do need Cahill in the side but we don't need to stick with a 4-4-1-1 any more. Part of Tim's game was getting forward to support the lone striker and arriving late in the box. He doesn't seem to be getting up and down the pitch as well as he used to and more of his goals are coming from set pieces. Why not play him in a more conventional four in midfield? Cahill and Fellaini could take it in turns to get forward. Scholes played deeper once his legs had gone and he couldn't tackle either. Alternatively, as I said earlier, we could tuck him in to a midfield three. Kuyt and Muller are both able to get forward to score from that position.

I dispute Osman's form being down to him playing behind the striker. He played all across the midfield. Pienaar's good run of form came because Arteta was injured and he was given the responsibility of being our creative centre. The same is true of Ossie. He flourished because he had a run in the side and because Moyes put faith in him to make things happen. Once our injured players started coming back, Leon went quiet again.

Yes, teams have figured us out. We've been playing the same way for something like six years. A change is long over due.

So we replaced Fellaini with inferior players and our form markedly improved. How does that work exactly? Osman has been in the squad for 10 yeats and has only shown in a three or four month spell why Moyes rates him so highly. Cahill has been one of our leading scorers and matchwinners since he joined the club. You would rather have the former in the team though. Up to you.

 

[billycopper]

To the people using underscores when creating little team formations, go to advanced and use the align tool. Looks a lot better, and it's easier.

Cheers.

 

[meagher94]

Didn't wanna start a new thread on this.

But anyway. Coleman - He is not a right mid.

Secondly, he is a defensive liability, he always commits ridiculous fouls like the one today which was costly. So in my eyes, he is not a RB.

So what is he? The answer IMO - not good enough.

 

[TX Bill]

We've seen him have good matches. I think (and Toffee Dan hit on this in another thread) but he hasn't had too much luck with injuries this season.

I think he could do a job for us but not today. Never should have been out there.

Should have been Drenthe.

 

[BigBlueBalls]

I look at Spurs and see a defender in left mid (Bale) and see a left midfielder at left back (Disco Benny*), although not to the extent it is similar in other teams, like that Glenda Johnson, he cant defend worth a damn.

*[Poor language removed]!