Club finances

[catcherintherye]

Your post is all conjecture and hope.

New stadium at most will bring in £30-40 million extra at most,if you think a new stadium will double our £189 million turnover then your financial nous is lacking and on top the stadium debt will be have high interest rates as i don't think the Mayor hoping tax payers foot the bill will not happen in a post Brexit UK.

The top 15-20 clubs in the rich list, the match day revenue is the 4th most important revenue stream after TV, Commercial, CL.

Not sure what the numbers will be for the kit deal but i'm sure they will be no where near those i posted in my previous post that the top 6 clubs get,those clubs have exposure worldwide being on tv the most and having worldwide fan bases and being established in the CL which companies want to be associated with when clubs are in that competition.

Uefa are clamping down down on owner linked commercial deals, have you read the Der Spiegel expose articles on City and PSG, Both are going through a 2nd investigation from UEFA on these shady deals now with the threat of being kicked out of European competition as just fining them the 1st investigation is nothing to state owned clubs, They have a threat of being banned from CL participation which would hurt them far more and damage their brand and PR that they use those clubs to distract from their human rights abusing slave owning dictatorships.

I'd like to ask you about about our debt that is greater than our entire turnover, you seem to ignore that fact and where is the news "Uncle Uzzy" has increased a stake in the club when UK/Russian relationship is worse off since the Cold War.

The debts worrying, but I'm pretty sure Moshiri has said he wants no interest on it and has not stipulated he even wants it back. In private he's also acknowledged he won't get it back. So it's not a bank overdraft, or a private loan firm where it can be called in or a change in interest rates will hit us badly. It's relatively secure.

The argument that Moshiri may call it in is a fair one. However all I would say, is while there are certainly criticisms of Moshiri he seems very committed not just to the club but also to the area. I suspect there is more than a bit of benevolence there, wanting to be seen as a man with a successful team will make things easier etc etc.

I also think there's a business brain there. If things go as planned, that area of Liverpool will be worth a bomb in 20 years. He will be central to it, having two of the most prominent buildings along that stretch of beatific waterway. I suspect he will purchase more land up (officially or not) and they may well exert significant influence on how people rent in that area. Much of this depends on him keeping Everton football club though, and of course Everton need to be successful.

It's a gamble, but on the whole it's a sensible gamble.

What needs to improve in the immediate is more astute approach in the transfer market, which looks like to come, and much better performance off the pitch. There have been improvements, but it needs to get much better. The figures you quote for the ground are fair, but it's more of a motor than a stand alone figure.

It could all go tits up. In the abstract these figures are worrying. Without the backing of (at least 1 ) billionaire we would be on the road to disaster. The truth is the club would never have got to this point, or operated in the way it has without Moshiri. We didn't go heavily with transfers, or go through managers quickly through managers or pursue an optimum location for a ground etc.

The question is very much what if he pulls out? It would be a big problem of course. However without Everton doing well, and without a fantastic new stadium on the docks many of the other ambitions can't materialise. So even if you reject the view of him as a decent philanthropist, from a business viewpoint it makes sense to see him continuing to support the club.

We will see though. In theory if it's so bad and he has no intention of supporting us longer term, this January window will be a fire sale. I don't think that will happen. In fact I bet we add more players in. It tends to support the view he will continue to back us financially and look to do so over a long term.

 

[havrey0123]

Much like the Man City owners did that converted their debt to equity, Mosh did it up front. I believe there are still several club owners that have it as legit debt FYI.

Still a debt tho.
It's just a way to get past the ffp rules.

Instead of loaning the money from the banks he loaned the money himself.

Moshiri is finding out very quickly it's not as easy as copying other billionaires and bringing success.

 

[catcherintherye]

When is our new kit deal up for renewal and is it still the kit bag deal.

Amazing if they pull off breaking United's £75 million a year deal from United, which will increase their spending power, seems to be a battle with Nike and Adidas to sign them up if they don't stay with New Balance. Their revenues seem to be going up 30% ever year since Klopp has been there and that's in sequence with their on field performances improving home and abroad, we are miles away from them on and off the pitch and no matter how much it hurts it's glaringly true and even @Steve0 can't spin that.

These are the current kit deals right now with the big 6.

United £75 million a year/ 10 year deal with Adidas.
Chelsea £60 million / 15 year with Nike.
Arsenal £60 million a year /5 year with Nike.
City £50 million a year /5 year with Puma.
Spurs £30 million a year /15 years with Nike.
RS £50 million a year. 6 year deal with Warrior/New Balance.

And what do we get from ours a year, less than £10 million a year?

Moshiri doesn't seem to have a plan so far, Nothing has improved on the pitch despite the splurges, On his 3rd appointment and 4th manager since he's been at the helm and commercially and turnover wise we still cannot get past the £200 million pound barrier while wages to turnover is an incredible 77% and a debt that is more than our entire turnover!!!!!!!!!!, This is absurd with an owner who was a personal accountant for a billionaire Oligarch to get in such a precarious position financially.

There's a lot of sense here mate. I don't think anyone would defend the first two years, which have been badly administered and even applied in a worse way. The fact the managers he's had have all performed very badly has also to be factored in. The system he has in place now looks to be the optimum one he wants, and I think we have to judge from this summer onwards with that in mind.

We do need to knock this "just an accountant for Usmanov" though. Mossier is a highly skilled and effective trader and entrepreneur. Forbes "conservatively estimated" a portion of his wealth at around 2 billion. They suspect it is significantly higher than that.

What he hasn't done so far is get people below him running the club well. We are getting there with that. If we do then the numbers will be better.

 

[catcherintherye]

Liverpools debt is due to their new stadium expansion and training ground they are in the process of building which they are able to service easily due to all the extra income they are making from the extra attendance plus all the new sponsorship deals. News just broke today they are in the process of a new kit dealswhich would see them bringing in over £70 million a year, more than double their current one...

Our debt on the other hand is toxic. What have we got out of it? We're still falling behind the top 6 in terms of revenue and our squad hasn't improved at all.

I'm not sure what the point of the comparison is. Currently we are also easily able to service the debt. If interest rates spike post Brexit (and base gets to say 8-10%) how easily serviceable will the LFC debt be? I don't know, however it will be a lot more difficult to service than ours, as we pay 0% interest on it. So I have to say I am confused by an assessment that places our debt as "toxic" yet theirs as easily serviceable.

 

[devlinadl]

Still a debt tho.
It's just a way to get past the ffp rules.

Instead of loaning the money from the banks he loaned the money himself.

Moshiri is finding out very quickly it's not as easy as copying other billionaires and bringing success.

Don't think it affects FFP at all. FFP is a profit-and-loss measure. This is a balance sheet issue.

 

[devlinadl]

The debts worrying, but I'm pretty sure Moshiri has said he wants no interest on it and has not stipulated he even wants it back. In private he's also acknowledged he won't get it back. So it's not a bank overdraft, or a private loan firm where it can be called in or a change in interest rates will hit us badly. It's relatively secure.

The argument that Moshiri may call it in is a fair one. However all I would say, is while there are certainly criticisms of Moshiri he seems very committed not just to the club but also to the area. I suspect there is more than a bit of benevolence there, wanting to be seen as a man with a successful team will make things easier etc etc.

Not sure Moshiri can even demand repayment. The statement from the accounts is:

"The loan will be repaid at a date to be agreed by Bluesky Capital Limited and Everton Football Club Limited."

That suggests repayment has to be a mutual agreement with the club, which is why the club feels justified in treating it as equity even though it's still officially a loan.

 

[catcherintherye]

Not sure Moshiri can even demand repayment. The statement from the accounts is:

"The loan will be repaid at a date to be agreed by Bluesky Capital Limited and Everton Football Club Limited."

That suggests repayment has to be a mutual agreement with the club, which is why the club feels justified in treating it as equity even though it's still officially a loan.

Yes I suspect it will be equity and then bought out at a later day. An astute way of doing things and possibly a way for a 2nd investor to come. It may still get greater over a period of time.

Suffice to say, the idea we are about to bankrupt because we can't service a loan that has 0% interest, no repayment date and arguably no basis to ask for a repayment (certainly not an easy one) is an overreaction.

 

[Toffeelover]

The debts worrying, but I'm pretty sure Moshiri has said he wants no interest on it and has not stipulated he even wants it back. In private he's also acknowledged he won't get it back. So it's not a bank overdraft, or a private loan firm where it can be called in or a change in interest rates will hit us badly. It's relatively secure.

The argument that Moshiri may call it in is a fair one. However all I would say, is while there are certainly criticisms of Moshiri he seems very committed not just to the club but also to the area. I suspect there is more than a bit of benevolence there, wanting to be seen as a man with a successful team will make things easier etc etc.

I also think there's a business brain there. If things go as planned, that area of Liverpool will be worth a bomb in 20 years. He will be central to it, having two of the most prominent buildings along that stretch of beatific waterway. I suspect he will purchase more land up (officially or not) and they may well exert significant influence on how people rent in that area. Much of this depends on him keeping Everton football club though, and of course Everton need to be successful.

It's a gamble, but on the whole it's a sensible gamble.

What needs to improve in the immediate is more astute approach in the transfer market, which looks like to come, and much better performance off the pitch. There have been improvements, but it needs to get much better. The figures you quote for the ground are fair, but it's more of a motor than a stand alone figure.

It could all go tits up. In the abstract these figures are worrying. Without the backing of (at least 1 ) billionaire we would be on the road to disaster. The truth is the club would never have got to this point, or operated in the way it has without Moshiri. We didn't go heavily with transfers, or go through managers quickly through managers or pursue an optimum location for a ground etc.

The question is very much what if he pulls out? It would be a big problem of course. However without Everton doing well, and without a fantastic new stadium on the docks many of the other ambitions can't materialise. So even if you reject the view of him as a decent philanthropist, from a business viewpoint it makes sense to see him continuing to support the club.

We will see though. In theory if it's so bad and he has no intention of supporting us longer term, this January window will be a fire sale. I don't think that will happen. In fact I bet we add more players in. It tends to support the view he will continue to back us financially and look to do so over a long term.

Well written mate. Moshiri is no mug there is a business brain in there just look who his associate is. He did GP up now that is a statement to me that he is not a fly by night. Add to that the purchase of the Liver Building moving the club offices there. The stadium will be built, Moshiri will be sitting on value and I am sure he is aware of this.

 

[Loz]

1 decent (and obvious) signing out of many. Bravo brown shoes.

Yes, perhaps an obvious signing but at the end of the day he wanted the player and put everything on the line to get him and broke the club’s transfer record to do so. However he wasn’t given huge funds regularly....certainly nothing like the money that’s been blown over the last couple of years by lesser managers.
Sandro, Klaassen, Bolasie, Williams, Schneiderlin. None of them good enough and we’ve either lost money on them or will do so, if indeed anyone will take them as we’ve only managed to sell Klaassen so far.

 

[Nymzee]

Yes, perhaps an obvious signing but at the end of the day he wanted the player and put everything on the line to get him and broke the club’s transfer record to do so. However he wasn’t given huge funds regularly....certainly nothing like the money that’s been blown over the last couple of years by lesser managers.
Sandro, Klaassen, Bolasie, Williams, Schneiderlin. None of them good enough and we’ve either lost money on them or will do so, if indeed anyone will take them as we’ve only managed to sell Klaassen so far.

The past atrocities in the market don’t make RM look any better with his dealings.

 

[Loz]

The past atrocities in the market don’t make RM look any better with his dealings.

Maybe not mate, but I think we have seen worse since he left, both on and off the pitch.
We can only hope that Messrs Silva and Brands are given the resources and time to improve things, but catching any of the current top six looks a tough task now.