#BLACKLIVESMATTER

[DownOnTheUpside]

Even wasps?

Just no mate

One stung me the other day while i was on the toilet
Burn them all

 

[WycombeToffee]

Mate you're talking rubbish. Police racism is VERY real. Racism is real. Forget class, my black mates live in a different world than I do. I don't understand how pointing out and protesting the indefensible is "inflaming matters". Well guess, what some stuff needs to be inflamed.

By the way, word for word replace BLM with MLK and you sound like every Southerner during Jim Crow.

a) You have nothing backing up your argument that the police are racist, but don't let that stop you.
b) MLK was great man, fighting for a truly good cause. These guys disgrace his memory as Black Rights campaigners. Don't even put them in the same sentence.

 

[Tubey]

But Black Lives Matter isn't saying that other lives don't. It's saying they are sick of being treated like their lives and their wellbeing doesn't matter as much as white lives. All lives matter, as a slogan, derails the conversation.

It doesn't derail the conversation; if anything, it'd focus it more by being an inclusive campaign that from it's very name strives for equality.

Black Lives Matter is akin to Black Power. "All Lives Matter" or even "Black Lives Matter Too" would have been less militant and basically accepted by everyone.

 

[dead_soft]

It doesn't derail the conversation; if anything, it'd focus it more by being an inclusive campaign that from it's very name strives for equality.

Black Lives Matter is akin to Black Power. "All Lives Matter" or even "Black Lives Matter Too" would have been less militant and basically accepted by everyone.

By 'everyone' read 'white people'. All lives matter is the same as not all men. The big point here isn't the name or that some white people feel left out because they're not included in the campaign and by turning the discussion into one about th name it is an attempt to take legitimacy and power from a movement.

 

[dead_soft]

a) You have nothing backing up your argument that the police are racist, but don't let that stop you.
b) MLK was great man, fighting for a truly good cause. These guys disgrace his memory as Black Rights campaigners. Don't even put them in the same sentence.

That final sentence - wow. How should black peoples behave to show proper respect, pal?

 

[Tubey]

By 'everyone' read 'white people'. All lives matter is the same as not all men. The big point here isn't the name or that some white people feel left out because they're not included in the campaign and by turning the discussion into one about th name it is an attempt to take legitimacy and power from a movement.

How does that work? Does "equal rights" mean "white people" too then?

No, it's not about being left out, it's about the underlying issue being undermined from the off. If the movement wants parity rather than superiority, they should from the off seek parity.

It's not even a matter of semantics; it's the difference between peacefully seeking equal rights and being a militant organisation. Whether you like it or not, to achieve equal rights, blacks need the support of whites, not to make them an enemy.

 

[dead_soft]

How does that work? Does "equal rights" mean "white people" too then?

No, it's not about being left out, it's about the underlying issue being undermined from the off. If the movement wants parity rather than superiority, they should from the off seek parity.

It's not even a matter of semantics; it's the difference between peacefully seeking equal rights and being a militant organisation. Whether you like it or not, to achieve equal rights, blacks need the support of whites, not to make them an enemy.

Wow, 'make them an enemy' - why what will white people do then?

White people already have access to many rights black people don't. Black Lives Matter is making the case that black people don't feel their lives are as respected or given the same level of care by society. They shouldn't have to be looking for white people to get permission to to campaign for this.

 

[Tubey]

Wow, 'make them an enemy' - why what will white people do then?

White people already have access to many rights black people don't. Black Lives Matter is making the case that black people don't feel their lives are as respected or given the same level of care by society. They shouldn't have to be looking for white people to get permission to to campaign for this.

Yeah, and there are right and wrong ways to achieve those ends.

By focussing on "black power", it alienates the cause to being reactionary and militant, and therefore will get no widespread support beyond those who are black and militant.

There's a reason Martin Luther King achieved ten times more than Malcolm X did for racial parity, because he had the right idea - peaceful protest that at it's core strove for equality and emphasised that they wanted no more than the same opportunities afforded to white people.

By labelling your cause "Black Lives Matter" and being militant from the offset, this is closer to Malcolm X. Common sense tells you that it won't achieve it's goal by being that way.

Again, everything you post is from the standpoint that white people are an enemy. It's a stupid mindset to have.

 

[dead_soft]

Yeah, and there are right and wrong ways to achieve those ends.

By focussing on "black power", it alienates the cause to being reactionary and militant, and therefore will get no widespread support beyond those who are black and militant.

There's a reason Martin Luther King achieved ten times more than Malcolm X did for racial parity, because he had the right idea - peaceful protest that at it's core strove for equality and emphasised that they wanted no more than the same opportunities afforded to white people.

By labelling your cause "Black Lives Matter" and being militant from the offset, this is closer to Malcolm X. Common sense tells you that it won't achieve it's goal by being that way.

Again, everything you post is from the standpoint that white people are an enemy. It's a stupid mindset to have.

And what would you have heard about a movement that did a few quiet marches in the States?

I really wouldn't get into telling the black community which icons or leaders they should be looking up to it can come across as really quite condescending.

They can call their cause whatever they want, again, getting hung on the name rather than what they actually want, doesn't suggest someone who is too bothered with the racial equality. If anyone thinks Black Lives Matter is going to end up wth white people being treated worse than black people or getting the brunt of an unequal deal, then they are fools

 

[dholliday]

By 'everyone' read 'white people'.

According to the BLM movement themselves, they also class this "everyone" to include Asian people, who they feel aren't doing enough to support the movement. See that spread of Onion-esque Guardian links on the previous page.

White people already have access to many rights black people don't.

Which rights are these?

They shouldn't have to be looking for white people to get permission to to campaign for this.

Who says anything remotely like this? It's a free society and people are free to criticise political movements if they feel they're potentially counter-productive. Nothing to do with seeking permission.

There's a reason Martin Luther King achieved ten times more than Malcolm X did for racial parity, because he had the right idea - peaceful protest that at it's core strove for equality and emphasised that they wanted no more than the same opportunities afforded to white people.

By labelling your cause "Black Lives Matter" and being militant from the offset, this is closer to Malcolm X.

Closer to Malcolm X mark I, but he evolved his thinking after denouncing the Nation of Islam. He was a deep guy who would've doubtless given all of us much food for thought had he lived longer. Rare is a man who can evolve his philosophy by intellectually criticising his previous convictions. The world needs more men like this.

 

[Tubey]

And what would you have heard about a movement that did a few quiet marches in the States?

I really wouldn't get into telling the black community which icons or leaders they should be looking up to it can come across as really quite condescending.

They can call their cause whatever they want, again, getting hung on the name rather than what they actually want, doesn't suggest someone who is too bothered with the racial equality. If anyone thinks Black Lives Matter is going to end up wth white people being treated worse than black people or getting the brunt of an unequal deal, then they are fools

It's not black people who need to be told their lives matter - it's white people. That should be the whole point, to strive for equality by emphasising a widespread understanding of the cause.

Just singing that tune to blacks is the very definition of "preaching to the choir". And it's interesting - but not surprising - that you immediately throw the racist card at me when on the back foot. Again, therein lies the problem.

It's not condescending; it's common sense. Anger gets things like this nowhere. I've already said the name goes beyond semantics, as it goes to the very core of what they're doing, and what they are doing isn't going to achieve anything except make blacks happy for a year or whatever.

If they were smart, they'd take the spring in support they have, and mould it into something long term - and that means not fighting white people in a populist movement; rather, they need to be working with them.

 

[Caolam]

All lives matter.

 

[dead_soft]

According to the BLM movement themselves, they also class this "everyone" to include Asian people, who they feel aren't doing enough to support the movement. See that spread of Onion-esque Guardian links on the previous page.

That's a different point to mine but it's okay for people to say that. It's okay for them to be wrong, and for that not to be the total judgement on a movement


Which rights are these?

Rights was poorly chosen. But there is less availability of upward social mobility, higher chance of being incarcerated, higher chance of getting longer prison sentences, black people get worse schooling, more likely to live in areas with drug problems. They have less access to opportunity.

Who says anything remotely like this? It's a free society and people are free to criticise political movements if they feel they're potentially counter-productive. Nothing to do with seeking permission.

There is a lot of suggestion of needing to get white people to support them or agree with them and that they should be acting within their group to enable this. The group isn't to make white people feel better.



Closer to Malcolm X mark I, but he evolved his thinking after denouncing the Nation of Islam. He was a deep guy who would've doubtless given all of us much food for thought had he lived longer. Rare is a man who can evolve his philosophy by intellectually criticising his previous convictions. The world needs more men like this.

 

[terry nodder]

Tubey on the ropes here.

Thanks, Ted.

 

[Tubey]

Tubey on the ropes here.

Thanks, Ted.

In what universe is that the case?

I'm discussing this with someone who thinks a black movement can achieve social parity by not getting white people to agree with their aims - at this point it's a debate version of kicking a puppy by talking about this with someone of that mindset.