2019/20 Bernard

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Lanolin said:
I didn't miss the point, you did. I'd already answered it in my original post, saying that personally I wouldn't play him there, I just thought you'd have to be incredibly dense not to understand why people thought he might be able to.
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Well I'm not dense, I just don't see the point. If you want him to play and not Sigurdsson, you play Iwobi.

And it's a lazy analysis. In Silva's current configuration, that player needs to create and score. I also think it's very different playing in the middle vs. playing on the wing. I can't see him being particularly effective pressing or defending deep in our 442 and believe he would be run over by defensive mids. He needs space where he can use his speed, deception, and skill to help with build up or springing wide attacks.
 
TheBigIguana said:
He'd be a horrific defender.

Also Lucas Digne would not be a good winger and Delph could play LB for City because it's basically midfield. It wouldn't work for us. Players are less flexible positionally than people think.
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Could hardly agree less.

Players are far MORE flexible positionally than people think. It always makes me laugh when people talk about it as if players were born as a full back or whatever. Often players have actually become professional playing one position but then changed. It's just that sometimes you're more likely to succeed at the top level in one position than another. Jagielka, for example, definitely could play central midfield. He did it a lot for Sheffield United, even in the PL. He would never have got England caps in midfield though, or played so many games for us. He was much better as a central defender but he could play in midfield. Lescott was a centre half who arguably played his best football at full back, Fellaini was bought as a defensive midfielder but many would argue he was better off the striker, Arteta was a central midfielder who became a hero playing out wide, Pienaar very rarely centrally for us but that's where he played at Ajax and for his country. That's just recent Everton players off the top of my head, the world is full of footballers who have changed positions over time.

As I said, it's all about skillsets. Digne couldn't play wide left for us now because that's basically a wide striker, but he could have played there in a Moyes team, easily. His role would have been very similar to what it is from full back now, he'd have excelled less but would have been perfectly comfortable. Delph could play full back because he has a good engine, is positionally disciplined and can tackle. Loads of midfielders could play full back if they needed to, you need many of the same attributes. Football's a fluid game, people don't just specialise in one very specific aspect.
 
CRIMHEAD said:
Well I'm not dense, I just don't see the point. If you want him to play and not Sigurdsson, you play Iwobi.

And it's a lazy analysis. In Silva's current configuration, that player needs to create and score. I also think it's very different playing in the middle vs. playing on the wing. I can't see him being particularly effective pressing or defending deep in our 442 and believe he would be run over by defensive mids. He needs space where he can use his speed, deception, and skill to help with build up or springing wide attacks.
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You're seemingly dense enough to keep arguing with me about why you wouldn't play him there in our system despite me always having agreed with you...
 

CRIMHEAD said:
Well I'm not dense, I just don't see the point. If you want him to play and not Sigurdsson, you play Iwobi.

And it's a lazy analysis. In Silva's current configuration, that player needs to create and score. I also think it's very different playing in the middle vs. playing on the wing. I can't see him being particularly effective pressing or defending deep in our 442 and believe he would be run over by defensive mids. He needs space where he can use his speed, deception, and skill to help with build up or springing wide attacks.
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nobody is saying drop Gylfi and play Bernard at 10 permanently, people are more just saying it's not unheard of to move a winger inside and he seems like the complete opposite of Gylfi so if it's not working with Gylfi, maybe push Bernard to 10 and see what he can do. If he's complete rubbish, then fair enough. It's not like anyone's suggesting moving him to center back. I'd love to see Iwobi, Bernard, and Richarlison behind Kean, just for 45 mins to see if it worked. If it's the worst thing ever then your points are valid but until it's tried, it's just opinion.
 
Lanolin said:
Could hardly agree less.

Players are far MORE flexible positionally than people think. It always makes me laugh when people talk about it as if players were born as a full back or whatever. Often players have actually become professional playing one position but then changed. It's just that sometimes you're more likely to succeed at the top level in one position than another. Jagielka, for example, definitely could play central midfield. He did it a lot for Sheffield United, even in the PL. He would never have got England caps in midfield though, or played so many games for us. He was much better as a central defender but he could play in midfield. Lescott was a centre half who arguably played his best football at full back, Fellaini was bought as a defensive midfielder but many would argue he was better off the striker, Arteta was a central midfielder who became a hero playing out wide, Pienaar very rarely centrally for us but that's where he played at Ajax and for his country. That's just recent Everton players off the top of my head, the world is full of footballers who have changed positions over time.

As I said, it's all about skillsets. Digne couldn't play wide left for us now because that's basically a wide striker, but he could have played there in a Moyes team, easily. His role would have been very similar to what it is from full back now, he'd have excelled less but would have been perfectly comfortable. Delph could play full back because he has a good engine, is positionally disciplined and can tackle. Loads of midfielders could play full back if they needed to, you need many of the same attributes. Football's a fluid game, people don't just specialise in one very specific aspect.
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Fellaini basically couldn't make it at United because he was no good as a defensive midfielder and only played well when he was allowed to get forward. Jagielka played central midfield at lower levels but never consistently in the Prem and I doubt he could have. Delph when asked to defend at LB was very poor positionally it's just that he wasn't asked to very often for City.

I'm not saying players are born to play somewhere or couldn't learn other spots but saying let's pop Bernard in at CAM without any preparation or that we could randomly push Digne to the wing isn't on imo.

I guess my point isn't that players can't change positions but that there are specialized skills at each one that can't be learned without serious practice and some growing pains in live matches. It isn't really practical and shouldn't be done unless needed. So they aren't really flexible in that from week to week you can't simply plug players wherever and expect it to work. But they can obviously learn.

With Bernard, and I think you agree here, it really isn't a great idea to move him centrally even if he might be able to learn it with time and patience.
 
Bakayoko Ono said:
Why not Iwobi, Richarlison and Bernard?

Looks most balanced to me. Give Richarlison the Cahill role!
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Because Moyes isn't our manager anymore.

But to be serious about it I wouldn't change the attack after Wolves and Lincoln. Yes Lincoln is league 1, but those two games were very good attacking displays and we might be on the cusp of finding some consistent goal scoring and creativity so for me this is the wrong time to try something new. Also I like Bernard as a super sub.
 
Ruairi77 said:
nobody is saying drop Gylfi and play Bernard at 10 permanently, people are more just saying it's not unheard of to move a winger inside and he seems like the complete opposite of Gylfi so if it's not working with Gylfi, maybe push Bernard to 10 and see what he can do. If he's complete rubbish, then fair enough. It's not like anyone's suggesting moving him to center back. I'd love to see Iwobi, Bernard, and Richarlison behind Kean, just for 45 mins to see if it worked. If it's the worst thing ever then your points are valid but until it's tried, it's just opinion.
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That's fine. Play Iwobi. But why would you move Bernard?
 

TheBigIguana said:
Fellaini basically couldn't make it at United because he was no good as a defensive midfielder and only played well when he was allowed to get forward. Jagielka played central midfield at lower levels but never consistently in the Prem and I doubt he could have. Delph when asked to defend at LB was very poor positionally it's just that he wasn't asked to very often for City.

I'm not saying players are born to play somewhere or couldn't learn other spots but saying let's pop Bernard in at CAM without any preparation or that we could randomly push Digne to the wing isn't on imo.

I guess my point isn't that players can't change positions but that there are specialized skills at each one that can't be learned without serious practice and some growing pains in live matches. It isn't really practical and shouldn't be done unless needed. So they aren't really flexible in that from week to week you can't simply plug players wherever and expect it to work. But they can obviously learn.

With Bernard, and I think you agree here, it really isn't a great idea to move him centrally even if he might be able to learn it with time and patience.
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Yeah I do agree with the last line but I think you're massively overegging the positional change thing in general. Obviously you have to work out how to play your role within the team's set up, but if you're still using the same basic skills then it's pretty simple to do. That's why examples like Mina at striker are daft, because you're not using the same skills at all. Asking a player who likes to get on the ball, pick passes, and take people on to do it 30 yards further infield really doesn't require that much of a rethink. On a basic level Bernard is a similar player to Mata, Silva, Lallana, Mkhitaryan, Ozil etc. All of them have played both wide and centrally, because it's a fairly straightforward transition.
 
Lanolin said:
Yeah I do agree with the last line but I think you're massively overegging the positional change thing in general. Obviously you have to work out how to play your role within the team's set up, but if you're still using the same basic skills then it's pretty simple to do. That's why examples like Mina at striker are daft, because you're not using the same skills at all. Asking a player who likes to get on the ball, pick passes, and take people on to do it 30 yards further infield really doesn't require that much of a rethink. On a basic level Bernard is a similar player to Mata, Silva, Lallana, Mkhitaryan, Ozil etc. All of them have played both wide and centrally, because it's a fairly straightforward transition.
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I guess he's similar to them. He's well worse than all of them though so I'm not sure if they are good examples of how someone can adapt.
 
TheBigIguana said:
Fellaini basically couldn't make it at United because he was no good as a defensive midfielder and only played well when he was allowed to get forward. Jagielka played central midfield at lower levels but never consistently in the Prem and I doubt he could have. Delph when asked to defend at LB was very poor positionally it's just that he wasn't asked to very often for City.

I'm not saying players are born to play somewhere or couldn't learn other spots but saying let's pop Bernard in at CAM without any preparation or that we could randomly push Digne to the wing isn't on imo.

I guess my point isn't that players can't change positions but that there are specialized skills at each one that can't be learned without serious practice and some growing pains in live matches. It isn't really practical and shouldn't be done unless needed. So they aren't really flexible in that from week to week you can't simply plug players wherever and expect it to work. But they can obviously learn.

With Bernard, and I think you agree here, it really isn't a great idea to move him centrally even if he might be able to learn it with time and patience.
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Cucu excelled at both full back positions and also at CB
 

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