6 + 2 Point Deductions

[Moomin]

Don't have twitter mate, nor any idea how to find your account on there. Any chance you could copy/paste here?

 

[gwladysnight]

I'm sure dear old Gladys will find something wrong with that x.

Of course.

Even if the interest was allowed as a PSR deduction we would still have failed PSR and faced a points deduction.

Then we get to the reason the interest wasn't allowed. When you take out a loan a charge document is issued stating what the loan was for and what it is secured against. The charge document is then published on the companies house website and becomes publicly accessible.

In the terms of the loan, the club categorically states that the loan will not be used to fund the Stadium. The Premier League didn't change their position halfway through. All that happened was that they found out that Moshiri had misled them. I mean how stupid can you be to lie about something that you know is going into the public domain?

How stupid can you be to tell the commission that you broke PSR because you needed to replace a non existent midfield as Moshiri did.

From the report.


The cause of
Everton’s PSR difficulties was the fact that it overspent (largely on its
purchase of new players and its inability to sell other players), and because it
finished lower in the league than it had projected in FY 2022 (16th against the
projected 6th – causing a loss of expected income of c.£21 million). Everton’s
understandable desire to improve its on-pitch performance (to replace the
non-existent mid field, as Mr Moshiri put it in evidence) led it to take chances
with its PSR position: those chances resulted in it exceeding the £105 million
threshold by £19.5 million.
138. The position that Everton finds itself in is of its own making – it is Everton’s
responsibility to ensure that it complies with the PSR regime. The excess
over the threshold is significant. The consequence is that Everton’s
culpability is great. We take into account the fact that Everton’s PSR trend
over the relevant four years is positive, but cannot ignore the fact that the
failure to comply with the PSR regime was the result of Everton irresponsibly
taking a chance that things would turn out positively. Further, Everton was
less than frank in its dealings with the Premier League over the stadium
interest issue. The reality is that Everton failed to manage its finances so as
to operate within the generous threshold of £105 million. Its mismanagement
led to that threshold being exceeded by £19.5 million.


How can anyone read that and think it was the Independent commission being unreasonable and not Moshiri being an idiot is beyond me. He completely undermined our defence that there shouldn't be a sporting sanction and he got caught out by being less than frank about what the loans were for.


The only chance we have is if we leave this to the barristers and keep Moshiri as far away from this as we can.

 

[Moomin]

True City's legal team are definitely not playing ball so then why don't the PL not play ball themselves and make it easier and less complex for them by say splitting the charges up and dealing with the different types of breaches separately. Some breaches that are simpler and similar to Everton's breaches for instance (And there definitely are some) can be dealt with immediately as they already have systems in place for it. All 115 don't have to be dealt with at the same time, to do so allows it to be complex and lengthy.

Truth is that the PL is fine with sitting back and kicking the can down the road because City are one of their golden boys and big money earners and they want to help them, not hurt them. It is a different set of rules for the scab 6, always has been.

I totally agree with this but unlimited funds can go a long way to prolong legal cases.

They are playing a game of kicking the can down the road.

 

[Marius57]

Of course.

Even if the interest was allowed as a PSR deduction we would still have failed PSR and faced a points deduction.

Then we get to the reason the interest wasn't allowed. When you take out a loan a charge document is issued stating what the loan was for and what it is secured against. The charge document is then published on the companies house website and becomes publicly accessible.

In the terms of the loan, the club categorically states that the loan will not be used to fund the Stadium. The Premier League didn't change their position halfway through. All that happened was that they found out that Moshiri had misled them. I mean how stupid can you be to lie about something that you know is going into the public domain?

How stupid can you be to tell the commission that you broke PSR because you needed to replace a non existent midfield as Moshiri did.

From the report.


The cause of
Everton’s PSR difficulties was the fact that it overspent (largely on its
purchase of new players and its inability to sell other players), and because it
finished lower in the league than it had projected in FY 2022 (16th against the
projected 6th – causing a loss of expected income of c.£21 million). Everton’s
understandable desire to improve its on-pitch performance (to replace the
non-existent mid field, as Mr Moshiri put it in evidence) led it to take chances
with its PSR position: those chances resulted in it exceeding the £105 million
threshold by £19.5 million.
138. The position that Everton finds itself in is of its own making – it is Everton’s
responsibility to ensure that it complies with the PSR regime. The excess
over the threshold is significant. The consequence is that Everton’s
culpability is great. We take into account the fact that Everton’s PSR trend
over the relevant four years is positive, but cannot ignore the fact that the
failure to comply with the PSR regime was the result of Everton irresponsibly
taking a chance that things would turn out positively. Further, Everton was
less than frank in its dealings with the Premier League over the stadium
interest issue. The reality is that Everton failed to manage its finances so as
to operate within the generous threshold of £105 million. Its mismanagement
led to that threshold being exceeded by £19.5 million.


How can anyone read that and think it was the Independent commission being unreasonable and not Moshiri being an idiot is beyond me. He completely undermined our defence that there shouldn't be a sporting sanction and he got caught out by being less than frank about what the loans were for.


The only chance we have is if we leave this to the barristers and keep Moshiri as far away from this as we can.

 

[John from Bootle]

Of course.

Even if the interest was allowed as a PSR deduction we would still have failed PSR and faced a points deduction.

Then we get to the reason the interest wasn't allowed. When you take out a loan a charge document is issued stating what the loan was for and what it is secured against. The charge document is then published on the companies house website and becomes publicly accessible.

In the terms of the loan, the club categorically states that the loan will not be used to fund the Stadium. The Premier League didn't change their position halfway through. All that happened was that they found out that Moshiri had misled them. I mean how stupid can you be to lie about something that you know is going into the public domain?

How stupid can you be to tell the commission that you broke PSR because you needed to replace a non existent midfield as Moshiri did.

From the report.


The cause of
Everton’s PSR difficulties was the fact that it overspent (largely on its
purchase of new players and its inability to sell other players), and because it
finished lower in the league than it had projected in FY 2022 (16th against the
projected 6th – causing a loss of expected income of c.£21 million). Everton’s
understandable desire to improve its on-pitch performance (to replace the
non-existent mid field, as Mr Moshiri put it in evidence) led it to take chances
with its PSR position: those chances resulted in it exceeding the £105 million
threshold by £19.5 million.
138. The position that Everton finds itself in is of its own making – it is Everton’s
responsibility to ensure that it complies with the PSR regime. The excess
over the threshold is significant. The consequence is that Everton’s
culpability is great. We take into account the fact that Everton’s PSR trend
over the relevant four years is positive, but cannot ignore the fact that the
failure to comply with the PSR regime was the result of Everton irresponsibly
taking a chance that things would turn out positively. Further, Everton was
less than frank in its dealings with the Premier League over the stadium
interest issue. The reality is that Everton failed to manage its finances so as
to operate within the generous threshold of £105 million. Its mismanagement
led to that threshold being exceeded by £19.5 million.


How can anyone read that and think it was the Independent commission being unreasonable and not Moshiri being an idiot is beyond me. He completely undermined our defence that there shouldn't be a sporting sanction and he got caught out by being less than frank about what the loans were for.


The only chance we have is if we leave this to the barristers and keep Moshiri as far away from this as we can.

But surely there has to be room for common sense? It's known that a lot of the stadium has been paid for without loans, but this has had the knock on effect of us having to use loans to help with running costs.

Mitigation is allowed you know, and whilst it might not change a technical breach, these factors should definitely play a part in some sort of leniency/understanding when it comes to punishment.

 

[mccole]

Carragher retweeting alot of stuff on the Premier league side

SCAB TURNCOAT SPITTING RAT

Not a PEEP on Hendo tho.

Stop thinking this "Scouser" is on our side FFS.

He isn't a Blue, he's a Kopite so stop tweet him begging for a retweet like he has ANY say on anything.

 

[Shibbywiggles]

Chelsea could genuinely be fine. Selling £400m of kids and overinflated dodgy transfers to Saudi versus only 1/8th (in each year) of their massive new contracts. Obviously they haven’t got infinite players to sell each year to offset the 1/8th of the big contracts. More importantly some of the new incomings have so far been gash. Probably fine in the very short term despite all the hyperbole, but they could go proper Everton with the odd twist of fate.

Getting away with the historic stuff is the issue with Chelsea. Totally irrelevant the owners changed from a sporting perspective.

Yeah I think the Chelsea model works but it quickly falls off a cliff if some of the players on 8 year contracts are crap and you can’t move them on and you need to bring in replacements.

They could end up in a worse version of what that Moshiri/Kenwright/Walsh horror show did to us where we ended up with clowns on four/five year contracts at 100k or so a week.

 

[Bez2k2k]

This rolling 3 years thing with PSR. Is it 3 years, for example 21/22, 22/23 & 23/24 which can't have a loss greater than £105m, and then the year after (24/25) does that new year become the new 3rd year of a "new" cycle (22/23, 23/24 & 24/25)? Or it a block 3 years like 21/22, 22/23 & 23/24 then 24/25, 25/26 & 26/27?

Reason I ask, and I know it's not just to do with transfer fees, but Chelsea's 3 year cycle from 21/22, 22/23 & 23/24 has over £700m negative transfer net spend... how isn't that in breach of the 3 year rolling loss limit of £105m?

They spread transfer fees over 7 year contracts and also the rules will be changed to suit them later on,

 

[kenada_blue]

Of course.

Even if the interest was allowed as a PSR deduction we would still have failed PSR and faced a points deduction.

Then we get to the reason the interest wasn't allowed. When you take out a loan a charge document is issued stating what the loan was for and what it is secured against. The charge document is then published on the companies house website and becomes publicly accessible.

In the terms of the loan, the club categorically states that the loan will not be used to fund the Stadium. The Premier League didn't change their position halfway through. All that happened was that they found out that Moshiri had misled them. I mean how stupid can you be to lie about something that you know is going into the public domain?

How stupid can you be to tell the commission that you broke PSR because you needed to replace a non existent midfield as Moshiri did.

From the report.


The cause of
Everton’s PSR difficulties was the fact that it overspent (largely on its
purchase of new players and its inability to sell other players), and because it
finished lower in the league than it had projected in FY 2022 (16th against the
projected 6th – causing a loss of expected income of c.£21 million). Everton’s
understandable desire to improve its on-pitch performance (to replace the
non-existent mid field, as Mr Moshiri put it in evidence) led it to take chances
with its PSR position: those chances resulted in it exceeding the £105 million
threshold by £19.5 million.
138. The position that Everton finds itself in is of its own making – it is Everton’s
responsibility to ensure that it complies with the PSR regime. The excess
over the threshold is significant. The consequence is that Everton’s
culpability is great. We take into account the fact that Everton’s PSR trend
over the relevant four years is positive, but cannot ignore the fact that the
failure to comply with the PSR regime was the result of Everton irresponsibly
taking a chance that things would turn out positively. Further, Everton was
less than frank in its dealings with the Premier League over the stadium
interest issue. The reality is that Everton failed to manage its finances so as
to operate within the generous threshold of £105 million. Its mismanagement
led to that threshold being exceeded by £19.5 million.


How can anyone read that and think it was the Independent commission being unreasonable and not Moshiri being an idiot is beyond me. He completely undermined our defence that there shouldn't be a sporting sanction and he got caught out by being less than frank about what the loans were for.


The only chance we have is if we leave this to the barristers and keep Moshiri as far away from this as we can.

Reads like 10 points and a another 5 to me

 

[mahermi1]

Of course.

Even if the interest was allowed as a PSR deduction we would still have failed PSR and faced a points deduction.

Then we get to the reason the interest wasn't allowed. When you take out a loan a charge document is issued stating what the loan was for and what it is secured against. The charge document is then published on the companies house website and becomes publicly accessible.

In the terms of the loan, the club categorically states that the loan will not be used to fund the Stadium. The Premier League didn't change their position halfway through. All that happened was that they found out that Moshiri had misled them. I mean how stupid can you be to lie about something that you know is going into the public domain?

How stupid can you be to tell the commission that you broke PSR because you needed to replace a non existent midfield as Moshiri did.

From the report.


The cause of
Everton’s PSR difficulties was the fact that it overspent (largely on its
purchase of new players and its inability to sell other players), and because it
finished lower in the league than it had projected in FY 2022 (16th against the
projected 6th – causing a loss of expected income of c.£21 million). Everton’s
understandable desire to improve its on-pitch performance (to replace the
non-existent mid field, as Mr Moshiri put it in evidence) led it to take chances
with its PSR position: those chances resulted in it exceeding the £105 million
threshold by £19.5 million.
138. The position that Everton finds itself in is of its own making – it is Everton’s
responsibility to ensure that it complies with the PSR regime. The excess
over the threshold is significant. The consequence is that Everton’s
culpability is great. We take into account the fact that Everton’s PSR trend
over the relevant four years is positive, but cannot ignore the fact that the
failure to comply with the PSR regime was the result of Everton irresponsibly
taking a chance that things would turn out positively. Further, Everton was
less than frank in its dealings with the Premier League over the stadium
interest issue. The reality is that Everton failed to manage its finances so as
to operate within the generous threshold of £105 million. Its mismanagement
led to that threshold being exceeded by £19.5 million.


How can anyone read that and think it was the Independent commission being unreasonable and not Moshiri being an idiot is beyond me. He completely undermined our defence that there shouldn't be a sporting sanction and he got caught out by being less than frank about what the loans were for.


The only chance we have is if we leave this to the barristers and keep Moshiri as far away from this as we can.

I can agree that Moshiri and the whole board at the time are idiots but £105m is definitely not generous, with a turnover like ours and that includes most of the other clubs. The top 6 turnover is monstrous compared to the bottom 14 and that is where that £105m is grossly unfair. Interest was allowed during the first period of the stadia build, Everton stated that in their defence, but Everton said that changed, if so that was strange, very strange. Also player x, was put forward by Everton and threw out as not a mitigating circumstance. I agree with Everton on that we indefinitely suspended him, how could we play him in them circumstances ?
So who would buy him ? That cost Everton.
Not saying we are totally innocent by any means, but in my view thd PL Masters wanted an example Everton were that perfect example.
To prove they could govern themselves. I will never forgive Moshiri, or Kenwright who professed we were innocent, confident and had nothing to worry about right to the very end. But don't worry you can't hurt the fans, yeah sing another song, you can't hurt the cartel fans.

 

[MikeH72]

Carragher retweeting alot of stuff on the Premier league side

Wonder how pro-PL he’s going to be when they let City off with their charges.

 

[kenada_blue]

I'm getting the impression that the media are putting out quite a lot of pro PL stories and reporting

Like clockwork they poured out after the parliamentary hearing

 

[pfim]

But surely there has to be room for common sense? It's known that a lot of the stadium has been paid for without loans, but this has had the knock on effect of us having to use loans to help with running costs.

Mitigation is allowed you know, and whilst it might not change a technical breach, these factors should definitely play a part in some sort of leniency/understanding when it comes to punishment.

The facts are not on Moshiri's side.

10 points for a 19 million breach over three years is absurd.

None of this has changed.

This thread should be about 1/3 of what it is, most of it is just bickering over facts, and then one guy being unreasonable in terms of addressing the punishment.

 

[pfim]

I can agree that Moshiri and the whole board at the time are idiots but £105m is definitely not generous, with a turnover like ours and that includes most of the other clubs. The top 6 turnover is monstrous compared to the bottom 14 and that is where that £105m is grossly unfair. Interest was allowed during the first period of the stadia build, Everton stated that in their defence, but Everton said that changed, if so that was strange, very strange. Also player x, was put forward by Everton and threw out as not a mitigating circumstance. I agree with Everton on that we indefinitely suspended him, how could we play him in them circumstances ?
So who would buy him ? That cost Everton.
Not saying we are totally innocent by any means, but in my view thd PL Masters wanted an example Everton were that perfect example.
To prove they could govern themselves. I will never forgive Moshiri, or Kenwright who professed we were innocent, confident and had nothing to worry about right to the very end. But don't worry you can't hurt the fans, yeah sing another song, you can't hurt the cartel fans.

Interest was not capitalized in the first period of the stadium build. These were all pre-planning costs, soft costs incurred before approval was given by authorities.

The tweet two pages ago is factually incorrect. The club stated that Moshiri funded these expenses, which were eventually excluded from PSR, by giving interest-free shareholder loans.

 

[widnesblue]

Masters yesterday said they are considering using a squad cost ratio similar to UEFA model. This would limit player salaries based on club turnover. So the sly 6 yet again have a significant advantage.

In Rugby League ALL clubs cannot spend more than a set amount (which is £2.1M) on player salaries.

Masters yesterday said they are considering using a squad cost ratio similar to UEFA model. This would limit player salaries based on club turnover. So the sly 6 yet again have a significant advantage.

In Rugby League ALL clubs cannot spend more than a set amount (which is £2.1M) on player salaries.

In Rugby League(super league) I think it’s £1.4m a season but also, there is a lot of brown envelopes that get distributed to players. It’s been happening for years that. St. Helen’s ironically in the late 90’s/early00’s had 7 players on £200k per season allowing them to only have 7 players officially on their books.

Ironically Rugby League, as been the blueprint for FFP in football in this country. It’s designed to protect the top clubs, whilst the bottom clubs struggle. RL has been a closed shop for years in this country and it’s happening in football in a much slower rate than people are realising. There is huge similarities within the sports. Sky sports been the major broadcaster that’s had a hand in destroying both sports in different ways. Var is used the same way the video ref is used, ones been using it for 20 years and is still useless as VAR is in football.

Sky’s two biggest mouthpieces for VAR and Independent regulators in Neville and Carragher, have brought all this on and why football is a mess in this country. Neville been banging on since the failed super league about an independent regulator, as been very silent on the situation (wonder why?) because his paymasters don’t want him to speak on it because it’s effects on sky.