Ref analysis of Tarkowski handball.

[Jacko93]

I had no issue with the penalty being given. He tried to get his body in position to chest it away, failed and then moved his arm towards the ball and made contact with it, which was plain stupid as Pickford would have saved it. The issue will be if the same thing happend at Chelsea, Man Utd, Mam City or the rs. I mean it's already happened to us with Rodri at Goodison. Consistency is the issue, not this penalty.

Penalty or not, there is no moment in which his arm moves independently towards the ball. His body does, of which is arm is a part. His arm actually continues to move behind his back.

But yes, consistency is the issue, as shown with the RS against Arsenal. The only real difference between the two was that one was deflected, one wasnt. Both made contact with the ball on the arm after a deliberate attempt to get a body in the way.

What I haven't yet been able to figure out, is when does Tarkowski begin his 'lean'? When the original ball is struck, or the point of the deflection. If its the latter the entire thing should be a moot point because as that speed its beyond his control.

Anyway... let's beat Villa

 

[MisterJ]

That's fine, if they say that's a penalty then we all know where we stand and we can all look forward to it being applied consistently going forward

Oh wait, didn't a Liverpool defender do exactly the same in the game v Arsenal and it wasn't given?

 

[heatmeiser]

I had no issue with the penalty being given. He tried to get his body in position to chest it away, failed and then moved his arm towards the ball and made contact with it, which was plain stupid as Pickford would have saved it. The issue will be if the same thing happend at Chelsea, Man Utd, Mam City or the rs. I mean it's already happened to us with Rodri at Goodison. Consistency is the issue, not this penalty.

Did he though? I think if anything it was the complete opposite. He had a split second to react after the deflection and his arm was moving further behind his back as the ball was approaching.

For me he moved his body toward the ball while trying to get his arm out of the way

 

[arch stanton]

I think the biggest thing I took away from watching that video was how the VAR basically tries to manipulate the referee into whatever he decides. Also how quickly they just 'decide' something and focus in on their narrative.

I think in every instance the VAR and AVAR determine their narrative, then they tell the ref exactly what it is and that its really obvious, basically making it out hes a huge idiot if he doesnt call it as they tell him.

The real honest way to do it is identify the incident you think is the issue, making no comment on it, telling the referee you think its worth reviewing and just showing it to him. If he cant independently(though hes already influenced) come to the SAME conclusion you did without the leading, it surely wasnt clear and obvious.

id go further, the var dont get involved unless it is something say like an off the ball incident miles away from the play that the ref wouldnt be expected to have seen, otherwise, the var only get involved when the on field ref asks for it as he isnt quite sure whether he has seen it correctly.
Re reffing in minutiae is ruining the game

 

[Norlye]

I think the biggest thing I took away from watching that video was how the VAR basically tries to manipulate the referee into whatever he decides. Also how quickly they just 'decide' something and focus in on their narrative.

I think in every instance the VAR and AVAR determine their narrative, then they tell the ref exactly what it is and that its really obvious, basically making it out hes a huge idiot if he doesnt call it as they tell him.

The real honest way to do it is identify the incident you think is the issue, making no comment on it, telling the referee you think its worth reviewing and just showing it to him. If he cant independently(though hes already influenced) come to the SAME conclusion you did without the leading, it surely wasnt clear and obvious.

I’m not a Rugby League fan, but saw a bit of a game recently. Try was scored. Ref said to VAR on field decision a try but can you please just check something. VAR went back to a part of the build up and started running through the footage.
Ref interjected, saying that he was happy with that part of the play. It was a very specific question he wanted answering.
Ref was in complete control. Decsion was made, and interestingly just accepted by everyone.
No comment from comms.
Game moved on.
It can be done, and if the VAR operatives need training up on the technology get rugby officials in short term to help. It’s been 5 years, I think,since VAR came into the PL and we still get rubbish. Not acceptable in any other job/industry.
Not sure why it is here. It is shrugged off & clowns & apologists help them get away with it.

Saw that the guy who wrongly disallowed the Fulham goal got moved sharpish of the R/S v Arsenal game as they really don’t want a “wrong” decision there .

 

[cronullasharks]

I’m not a Rugby League fan, but saw a bit of a game recently. Try was scored. Ref said to VAR on field decision a try but can you please just check something. VAR went back to a part of the build up and started running through the footage.
Ref interjected, saying that he was happy with that part of the play. It was a very specific question he wanted answering.
Ref was in complete control. Decsion was made, and interestingly just accepted by everyone.
No comment from comms.
Game moved on.
It can be done, and if the VAR operatives need training up on the technology get rugby officials in short term to help. It’s been 5 years, I think,since VAR came into the PL and we still get rubbish. Not acceptable in any other job/industry.
Not sure why it is here. It is shrugged off & clowns & apologists help them get away with it.

Saw that the guy who wrongly disallowed the Fulham goal got moved sharpish of the R/S v Arsenal game as they really don’t want a “wrong” decision there .

It's no better in rugby league over here, we call it Bunker Bingo its become that much of a joke the garbage they come up with

 

[Norlye]

It's no better in rugby league over here, we call it Bunker Bingo its become that much of a joke the garbage they come up with

Perhaps I just got lucky with the bit I saw.
It would be some achievement if the RL guys could make VAR worse, but maybe I should just be careful what I ask for.

 

[TraffordBlue]

As many have already said it's the lack of consistency that is the issue. I personally can see the justification for that being handball because he took a gamble by leaning towards it which didnt pay off as it hit his arm. He was entitled to lean in to it but if it hits his arm, it can be given as a penalty.

The major flaw with this decision is that they wouldn't give that as handball on another day and they will use a different explanation as to why it wasn't handball.

One of the worst comments from those looking at it on the night was the "the ball travelled a long way". Absolutely ridiculous comment because he had very little time to consciously decide what to do in that moment. The ball came at him very fast.

VAR is a tool to manipulate results.

 

[HalfTimeSayers]

Leave goal line technology and if they can get a 99% accurate AI automated offside thing working, that too.

Said it before, take all the money spent on the tech required for VAR, take the people out of the VAR room, put extra money into referee development from grass roots upwards and stick at least one more ref on the pitch (not the touchline). Could be replicated further down the pyramid too. Would need far far more stringent on field punishment for ref abuse too in order to attract the numbers.

The rules, such as handball, are crap. Some of the refs, particularly when on VAR duty, are crap. But it’s the VAR process that is broken and will never be fixed by tinkering. It’s not like cricket where videos and microphones can detect a slight clip of the edge of the bat.

Everything is a foul in slow motion. Everything is a handball in slow motion.
It is factually impossible to have a true definition of “clear and obvious error.” It cannot be done.

Possibly keep the screen-side monitor so that if the on field refs did see a potential infringement, they can watch a full speed replay e.g. deliberate dangerous tackle. But under no circumstances should they get influence from a referee 200 miles away watching at 10% speed.

 

[orchard]

VAR ought to be entirely transparent with video and audio feeds available throughout the process.

 

[Jebus_lives]

While I don’t agree, I can see their point.
The biggest issue is another player will do it and the ref team will have a different opinion next time, esp if it’s Them, City, Arsenal etc.

They continue to demonstrate an inability to be consistent. That for me is the issue.

I also expect if that was an attacker and they control the ball or it deflected into a goal scoring opportunity, would they disallow the goal?

If its a different referee and a different VAR person making the decisions there will always be 'inconsistency' in application of the rules. What I find strange is the inconsistency of individual decision making of referees seeing two similar decisions completely differently week after week.

 

[Kevsleftpeg]

It’s not about the natural position! There are two rules, one position matters, one it doesn’t. This is the one it doesn’t.

It’s simply was it deliberate? They said yes.

Why would anyone deliberately handle the ball unless it’s to stop a certain goal? It’s clearly unintentional. The number of intentional handballs is vanishingly small. So they we get into the nonsense territory of recklessness/body shape/natural position.

 

[Blue83]

The premier league and Sky actually love that the referees are crap, because it drives engagement with people. It generates online debate, people watch the clips online, they like and comment.

It's almost as if the League and referee organisation are controlled by Sky because of the obscene amounts of money paid for licensing

 

[Tony Hibbert's Wife]

Leave goal line technology and if they can get a 99% accurate AI automated offside thing working, that too.

Said it before, take all the money spent on the tech required for VAR, take the people out of the VAR room, put extra money into referee development from grass roots upwards and stick at least one more ref on the pitch (not the touchline). Could be replicated further down the pyramid too. Would need far far more stringent on field punishment for ref abuse too in order to attract the numbers.

The rules, such as handball, are crap. Some of the refs, particularly when on VAR duty, are crap. But it’s the VAR process that is broken and will never be fixed by tinkering. It’s not like cricket where videos and microphones can detect a slight clip of the edge of the bat.

Everything is a foul in slow motion. Everything is a handball in slow motion.
It is factually impossible to have a true definition of “clear and obvious error.” It cannot be done.

Possibly keep the screen-side monitor so that if the on field refs did see a potential infringement, they can watch a full speed replay e.g. deliberate dangerous tackle. But under no circumstances should they get influence from a referee 200 miles away watching at 10% speed.

Quite.

The two fallacies of VAR:

1. That it's possible to have perfectly accurate or even consistent decision making via video referee; and
2. Even if that were possible, the desire to have accurate decision making should come a long way behind the overwhelming overriding objective that the game should flow.

Football isn't rugby, which is (in the main) both higher scoring and very stop-start. It's a game that can handle the delays caused by VAR.

Football must flow. Fans must be able to celebrate a goal.

 

[cjuk87]

We're not still going on about this are we? It was a blatant pen.

Watch again as he tucks his arm behind his back. *slows the clip down* riiiiight....DER!! *points at Tarky's face* look, a sly smile begins to form as he leans ever so slightly into the path. Therefore, *deep intake of breath* penalty.