The identify paradox: modern club or traditional institution looking out for the fans and community?

[Toffe3m4n]

I don’t doubt this is true at all.
The is being increasingly gentrified .
The working class is being deliberately eased out by pricing policies.
What’s left are crowds consisting primarily of middle class cos playing football supporters.

As @Iana mentioned earlier - it already happened long ago at Liverpool and United. City & Chelsea more recently, with Spurs now having an absolutely massive following in the Far East (due mainly to Son) and a new(ish) big shiny stadium of their own.

Soon enough it'll be Newcastle - then, ultimately, us.

None of the other established Prem clubs will exactly be sitting still now either, knowing that they either try to commercialise the hell out of themselves or get left even further behind.

I'm personally of the opinion that we should've tried this route long before now, but understand that it still isn't a particularly popular view with sections of the fanbase..

 

[Neiler]

The PL is a blight on football.
It’s a money oriented commercial vehicle for corporate interests and sportswashing dubious regimes.
It isn’t just destroying the historic community based fabric of the game here , it’s malign influence spreads to the continent and beyond , forcing other leagues to compete with it to ensure their own existence as viable competitors.
And we are part of it .
I travel over to follow a team in Germany a lot now (actually two ) when we are playing away.
I am not a supporter of those teams , just a follower, but I find the Bundesliga experience far more enjoyable and a better experience generally. It acts as an antidote , reminds me of how football could be . Also less costly even with the travel.
The Bundesliga like other leagues is under financial pressure to ape the behemoth that is the PL , and I suppose will inevitably continue to drift in that direction.
It’s sad , but that’s life .
Here not enough cared or at least cared enough to resist , that’s the saddest part.

All of this unfortunately, if you are bemoaning the squeezing of every last penny from the community and fan base then you are essentially choosing being a small club.

The hard truth is, increased costs get us barely competitive with WHU, to truly be in with a chance of challenging the to 6 you need to be global - by global i mean you have to have global income coming into your football club, shirt sales, official members, advertising, tourism demand. Its a global game now.

Its abhorrent, but raising prices on local communities isnt even scratching the service. The hard choice untimely is if you want to stay parochial you stay true to the community and roots and be a Crystal Palace, of if you want to compete for trophies you have to tap every resource ++ domestic and more importantly become global and become Chelsea or City. The fans in Hong Kong are as if not more important then fans in locally. This is the now we are catching up on and the future.

 

[davek]

Most clubs already do this, we are just catching up.

If we get more corporate sponsorship, it will pale in comparison to others above us.

If we find new revenue streams, we'll be copied and it will be matched or exceeded.

There are always limits to this, of course. But they're dictated by the supply/demand curve and not by some benevolence or altruistic vision of what a club should be.

Josh Wander, for his many (many) flaws was right, the club will need to find ways to monetize the customer. He was just dumb enough to say the obvious out loud.

That's all great in theory, but you cant exploit people for what they dont have.

I've mentioned a few times on here that the bulk of Everton's STHs - as revealed by the transport plan - are located in districts in and around Liverpool where economic inactivity is rife: above 50% rising to 60%+ in some cases.

Demand from our demographic is not elastic.

We all know this in any case. We dont need STH heat maps on a planning document to understand and appreciate that. Most of us who know Evertonians who can get to the game are not well off people, far from it. Loads shared STHs in the past and cut the cost of match attendance that way.

Unless the club can convince thousands of non-Evertonians that they should support Everton week-in week-out through the good and bad times - mostly bad - then they're going to find all that out.

 

[davek]

Dave you do make some pertinent points here, but I'll be honest with you...

As long as things are going well on the football pitch, the vast majority of Evertonians won't care a jot about the gradual 'commercialisation' of the club as they'll swiftly accept it as the means to the end when it comes to seeing any success in this modern age of the game. Those 'militant fans' will, rightly or wrongly, fall into the minority as time goes on.

Well we're way off that point right now.

Also: even at clubs that are successful you still get fan groups organised to take the fight to owners. Some fights they'll win, others they'll lose.

It's a very abstract view of things to believe the constant push to commercialise and push up costs will be accepted. It bears no reality to the way the world operates.

 

[pfim]

That's all great in theory, but you cant exploit people for what they dont have.

I've mentioned a few times on here that the bulk of Everton's STHs - as revealed by the transport plan - are located in districts in and around Liverpool where economic inactivity is rife: above 50% rising to 60%+ in some cases.

Demand from our demographic is not elastic.

We all know this in any case. We dont need STH heat maps on a planning document to understand and appreciate that. Most of us who know Evertonians who can get to the game are not well off people, far from it. Loads shared STHs in the past and cut the cost of match attendance that way.

Unless the club can convince thousands of non-Evertonians that they should support Everton week-in week-out through the good and bad times - mostly bad - then they're going to find all that out.

Well, this is what they need to do. And I'm sure many won't like it as it may price them out of the stadium (more demand than supply). And while the long time supporters certainly have a point and would justifiably feel hard done by, that's how the club will move forward. Everything (ticket sales, corporate sponsorship, playing opportunities) is dependent on growing the customer base.

What you see in the states, because we don't have relegation, is that demand for tickets goes down when the team's performance goes down. This seems logical but I don't know that you always see that in England (not at Goodison). We call these people who only show up when things are good fair-weather fans or plastic fans. Their heart is not always in it, and they are there more to be entertained or to feel good (win). And it can be very frustrating as a die-hard when the team is doing well as you've suffered through the bad times only be supplanted by someone who doesn't.

The rub is that these fans are what make the club profitable. The die-hards provide the base, and when things are going well the others make the club profitable.

It's similar in this instance that if the club wants to grow revenues, it needs to expand its base.

At any rate, all prices are set on a supply/demand curve. If they have data that suggests they are most profitable at a 7 pound pint, it would be illogical to make it less. The only way to change that is to change the demand, you could apply that to just about any revenue stream at the club.

 

[Eggsyblueskin]

As @Iana mentioned earlier - it already happened long ago at Liverpool and United. City & Chelsea more recently, with Spurs now having an absolutely massive following in the Far East (due mainly to Son) and a new(ish) big shiny stadium of their own.

Soon enough it'll be Newcastle - then, ultimately, us.

None of the other established Prem clubs will exactly be sitting still now either, knowing that they either try to commercialise the hell out of themselves or get left even further behind.

I'm personally of the opinion that we should've tried this route long before now, but understand that it still isn't a particularly popular view with sections of the fanbase..

It’s not popular because it prices people out of the game.
If I or anyone else can’t afford to attend a game , I don’t see the point . It becomes not ‘our thing ‘ but somebody else’s .

 

[BackRow PE6]

Football in its purest sense ceased being a competition between clubs that represent their communities once the Premier League was formed. The most successful clubs since then have traded off their traditions but make no mistake, have been ruthless commercial operators that drive their bottom line ahead of everything that made them what they were up until that point. Take our neighbours. Decimated Anfield, restrict SEASON tickets for commercial gain, espouse socialism but monetise everything.

Fans who have an issue with have packed it in but their is no shortage of others staying or new ones taking their place

It’s a miracle we have survived in the league to this point when you consider how inept we have been commercially.

Not sure I like how we will inevitably change and I hope we don’t lose sight of what makes the club special, but we have to change IF we want to be competitive.

 

[davek]

Well, this is what they need to do. And I'm sure many won't like it as it may price them out of the stadium (more demand than supply). And while the long time supporters certainly have a point and would justifiably feel hard done by, that's how the club will move forward. Everything (ticket sales, corporate sponsorship, playing opportunities) is dependent on growing the customer base.

What you see in the states, because we don't have relegation, is that demand for tickets goes down when the team's performance goes down. This seems logical but I don't know that you always see that in England (not at Goodison). We call these people who only show up when things are good fair-weather fans or plastic fans. Their heart is not always in it, and they are there more to be entertained or to feel good (win). And it can be very frustrating as a die-hard when the team is doing well as you've suffered through the bad times only be supplanted by someone who doesn't.

The rub is that these fans are what make the club profitable. The die-hards provide the base, and when things are going well the others make the club profitable.

It's similar in this instance that if the club wants to grow revenues, it needs to expand its base.

At any rate, all prices are set on a supply/demand curve. If they have data that suggests they are most profitable at a 7 pound pint, it would be illogical to make it less. The only way to change that is to change the demand, you could apply that to just about any revenue stream at the club.

People are biting the bullet on pricing at the moment because it's all a new experience + (in the case of drink) they can get cheaper readily available outside the stadium.

The difference between Everton and the example you give from North America is that those fair weather fans - and the ability to exploit them - isn't there for Everton, so dedicated fans are bearing the brunt.

We'll see friction and conflict between the club and the fanbase. It's just inevitable.

 

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

''Everton will lose its identity, culture, and traditional fanbase.''

You all sound like Reform voters. Embrace the coming diversity, you bigots.

NORWEIGIANS WELCOME HERE!

I think that means Dave is our Nigel Farage.

Joking aside, there's a serious point here. Opposing any and all change reeks of conservatism. Life moves on, society evolves. In football terms, we love invoking our history but we run the risk of living in the past. The question is actually, at least partly, one of ethics.

How much do we give up to the corporate beast, in turn taking a massive dump on a local fan base that is reported to not be the wealthiest?

Equally, not everything has to change for changes sake. There's a risk of losing some of the genuinely good stuff the club does in the community. Or it at least being turned into a gaudy PR exercise.

 

[Bryan+]

There's indeed a real risk of a disconnect between a section of fans over the coming seasons.

The coming season? Wasn’t moshiri and employing a succession of imperialist managers like dyche, allardyce and Benitez enough?

I’d like to think most fans will know they are in business now and gone are the days of a £3 pint and a pie.

 

[Eggsyblueskin]

I think that means Dave is our Nigel Farage.

Joking aside, there's a serious point here. Opposing any and all change reeks of conservatism. Life moves on, society evolves. In football terms, we love invoking our history but we run the risk of living in the past. The question is actually, at least partly, one of ethics.

How much do we give up to the corporate beast, in turn taking a massive dump on a local fan base that is reported to not be the wealthiest?

Equally, not everything has to change for changes sake. There's a risk of losing some of the genuinely good stuff the club does in the community. Or it at least being turned into a gaudy PR exercise.

Price is immutable.
You raise prices , you price people out.
It’s not a question of choice .
It’s the removal of choice.
It has , and it continues to change the demographic of the game.
There are far less young men who attend the game now .
You notice this more if you go abroad to watch games.
It’s sad , but even with constantly packed stadia , a lot of the vibrancy has gone.
The atmosphere is more artificial, managed and slightly false at times .
We have lost a lot already and it continues to erode season by season .

 

[KaiserEFC]

Absolutely blob on.

As much as I love the NFL, the 'Americanisation' of English football has slowly been taking a hold so that it'll start catering less and less to the 'traditional' fan and more to the 'general audience'. The new stadium will ultimately show this plainly in our case - the club will certainly be trying to get as many 'non-traditional' fans into it as possible over time to maximise revenue whereever possible. Will likely start seeing evidence of this soon enough.

For what it's worth - I'm generally non-plussed about it as a 39 year old lifelong fan who had a season ticket for years in my teens. We need to 'move with the times' so to speak if we ever want to be at least semi-competitive again (barring any future massive, wholesale changes to how Premier League teams can conduct/regulate themselves, i.e. salary caps etc.)

I agree to a point but I can never advocate for gouging your own fans I love the NFL because it’s competitive and anybody can theoretically win it (as well as it being far better to watch than the dive-tastic “contact” sport that is football). Unfortunately the best way to be a fan now is to be a team jumping bandwagon chasing casual.

My opinion on the sport and Everton is that it’s futile. You sign some nice players, you’ve got a nice stadium maybe you actually play some nice football, then what? You’re not winning anything meaningful. You’re not keeping any of those players. You’re not allowed to. Newcastle are finding this out, owned by a super dodgy petrostate I figured they’d be allowed at the top table but that isn’t the case.

People will say “I’ll just take Europe and a trophy” but no you won’t. That’s not how sport works. Five years of the seventh place trophy and a capital one cup and people will be moaning, calling for heads as is normal.

 

[Drico]

People are biting the bullet on pricing at the moment because it's all a new experience + (in the case of drink) they can get cheaper readily available outside the stadium.

The difference between Everton and the example you give from North America is that those fair weather fans - and the ability to exploit them - isn't there for Everton, so dedicated fans are bearing the brunt.

We'll see friction and conflict between the club and the fanbase. It's just inevitable.

It won't work unless the Everton of the Friedkins is a far more attractive proposition than the Everton of Good Times. But the Friedkins have the imperative that it works, so they can make money.

If we start to become known for good, exciting, progressive football, sign good technical players that people genuinely relate to, and start winning football matches consistently, the transition is inevitable. This will, in general, be accepted by the majority who, let's face it, would sell their souls for success at this point. I'm not saying they are wrong, either.

The Everton some of our militant types might want is a bit like the German Democratic Republic. Ideological, ineffective, bleak and...history.

 

[Drico]

Unless the club can convince thousands of non-Evertonians that they should support Everton week-in week-out through the good and bad times - mostly bad - then they're going to find all that out.

The elimination of the "mostly bad" bit will be the challenge for the Friedkins.

If they succeed in making Everton "mostly good", then the local demographics will matter less and less.

 

[davek]

The elimination of the "mostly bad" bit will be the challenge for the Friedkins.

If they succeed in making Everton "mostly good", then the local demographics will matter less and less.

Big challenge that is too.