ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC" part 3

[Tommy Chong]

The whole Koulibaly sounds like a manager trying to save face, an sends a message, a poor one mind. He trying to get the fans on his side in a fight he won’t win.
If they bought me Kouli we would have won and not been in this position, instead they got me 2 defenders I don’t want(that’s why there not in the squad).
Think back to his Ben Davis statement and the WOW, that was said as a dig not a compliment.

Loved CB having a dig and “The mask has slipped” line that said on here all the time

Love it too. I hope everyone opens their eyes now. He had everyone fooled, but not us. The toxicity emanating off of that man is acrid!

This line is usually applied to narcissist's, sociopaths and of course psychopaths. And it's true what they say, once you get a glimpse of the real monster that resides behind the mask (even if it's for a split second), it's impossible to ever think of them the same way that they once were.

They spend years tweaking their skill of superficial charm, so that they know just how to manipulate people. But it's just a big con and like all lies, it eventually gets found out.

I mean, FFS, before Ted Bundy got busted, literally everyone he knew described him as being the most charming bloke that they've ever met! lol

 

[MrGrumpy]

It's never ever been enough with Liverpool though, they always want more..

They like the narrative that they are skint and a little boy fight against giants and last year they slayed the giant with their sling shot, when the giant had tanks and planes

 

[MrGrumpy]

Love it too. I hope everyone opens their eyes now. He had everyone fooled, but not us. The toxicity emanating off of that man is acrid!

This line is usually applied to narcissist's, sociopaths and of course psychopaths. And it's true what they say, once you get a glimpse of the real monster that resides behind the mask (even if it's for a split second), it's impossible to ever think of them the same way that they once were.

They spend years tweaking their skill of superficial charm, so that they know just how to manipulate people. But it's just a big con and like all lies, it eventually gets found out.

I mean, FFS, before Ted Bundy got busted, literally everyone he knew described him as being the most charming bloke that they've ever met! lol

He has a face only a mother could love. Or in terms of football, if he your manager you love him but everyone else sees the truth. He only gets the love in he gets because he the RS manager.

Wonder if Brenda will toe the party line this weekend and let them win

 

[Yarrgh]

The tide is turning...

Klopp is the story now. Let's see how much destruction he can wreak as the situation blows up.

 

[Yarrgh]

Standing ovation for Craig Burley, superbly put.

Also Frank, no, people would not think a manager stupid for saying they would still 'give it their best shot'. That is the minimum that they would expect from a manager. I mean, what is the problem with saying 'We are outside favourites, for sure, but we will keep plugging away and do our best to put pressure on them.

How is that hard to understand.

I am glad there is at least one channel (even if it across the pond) allowed to say the obvious, the mask has indeed slipped and he is showing his true self.

Exactly right. That's what a sensible manager would say. Some platitude saying that there is signs of turning things around, that once they regain momentum they'll be back applying pressure to the leaders and the long term prognosis is good. Even lay it on thick about the worst injury list of 3 players to ever hit a club. A few pages of laughs from us in this thread and it'd wash over. Now he is making a rod for his own back as he annoys the media. Delightful.

 

[Saint Domingo]

It's the Thiago signing that is odd. Washed up, not really suited to the PL, not suited to their style, and in honesty a downgrade on Wijnaldum, yet they have spent £30m and huge wages on a guy who had a year left on his deal. He took until January to become fully fit and they could have got him for a nominal fee in January had they waited.

Jota is more forgiveable. They made circa what we did for Sigurdsson for him, and more than we did for Richarlinson. He's always been a bit injury prone, and has never scored more than 7 league goals in a season. He started well, but I do start to think it was just a hot streak. I didn't fancy him to get 10 league goals (which in fairness for the fee spent out is a bare minimum of what you would be after). I still think Werner- signed for a similar fee will be a much better signing long term. I mean Jota hasn't been an awful signing, but I do think he's been slightly overblown how good he is.

The reality is, we probably got the above 4, and Brainthwaite, Nkounkou and King for the same money as they signed the above 2. You really don't have to be a genius to see who got the better haul from that.

They looked closely at Godfrey too, and I'll be honest I'm very surprised they didn't sign him. I always felt he was a bit of a clone of Gomez, quick, strong, powerful, good on the ball. Like Gomez he lacks a bit in terms of football IQ and defending ability, but he's not as poor as Gomez is in that regard. I actually think he's an upgrade on Gomez pre injury (never mind post injury). While the injury is unlucky for Gomez, the lad is injury prone, so it is to be expected. Godfrey is also versatile, can play across the back 4 to a good level, and in midfield. I'm amazed they didn't pull the trigger on that deal. They'd have been better paying £20-£25m than £15m for that left back, who is poor. Godfrey is a lot better left back than him already and could have covered centre back.

What people forget about Jota is that Hoever going the other way was part of the deal. How much would you value him at? He was arguably the club’s best defensive prospect (as seen by him playing in the Wolves first team whilst Philips Williams aren’t trusted and the others are on loan or not in the squad) at centreback and full back. Probably similar to where Holgate was a few years ago. Perhaps valued at least at 10 mill if a far inferior player like Brad Smith went to Bournemouth for 6 mill not long ago.

That would put the deal for Jota at 50 million. Undoubtedly a higher cost because Liverpool wanted to pay on the drip. Wolves had their pants down because they knew Liverpool were in the last chance saloon of the transfer window having not got Werner. For 50 million I’d be expecting a first team player who would come in and be one of the top strikers in the premier league. He is nowhere near that.

 

[catcherintherye]

They're £32.5m net spend up, during a pandemic.

The whole charade of FSG being monsters is mental. Are they in it to make money? 100% but how do they make money? By being successful and expanding their revenue.

That new stand is worth over £2m a game to them, in 10-years of ownership have spent £250m net, built a new state-of-the-art training facility, renovated around the stadium for a better match day experience (arguably the worse thing they've done to the area).

What more do they want? Look at Hicks and Gillett, they took them to the brink of death, and they've got a cheek to moan about them being money grabbers.


So to conclude, 8,000 more fans can now attend, overseen first title in 30 years, a Champions League and backed the manager no end... sound like utter monsters.

It's never enough though. Like the proverbial addict, or spoilt kid, it's never enough. That was the mistake H & G made, they kept trying to give them more, and it was never going to be enough, and once it crashes they just blame you anyway.

It looks like FSG have learnt that lesson earlier on. They are getting their PR defence out much qukcker, have the boardroom sewn up and ultimately are not caving in on spending, knowing they will be expected to foot the bill if it goes wrong.

They are a club that does well in momentum when it goes their way, but do very very badly when they have a setback. Look at what happened when Gerrard slipped and handed the title to City. They too proabbly another 2 years to get close to recovering. Until Klopp came in they were trending towards the bottom half of the league. Under Benitez, when they kicked off a full thronged war with their owners, theyw ere 20th in the league and heading out of the league until FSG rolled up.

They don't do well with adversity or losing momentum, and will often turn what should be a dip, into a catastrophe, which is whats happening here by the looks of things.

 

[John from Bootle]

The mail now joining the vultures. Apparently Klopp wanted Koulibaly in January and FSG said no. I’m sure it’s just speculation but there’s no doubt a media agenda to shift the focus onto FSG spending rather than Klopp’s failings.

Can you not see both sides of it though?

Sure Klopp ballsed up with his summer business. However, as I've said previously, they were top of the league when the transfer window opened.

Mismanagement aside. every man and his dog knew they needed to get a top centre back in if they wanted to defend their title.

FSG have basically thrown the towel in on retaining the title.

Although there has been a lack of pragmatism from Klopp, imo. If he knew that there wasn't funds available for a decent centre back, then why not just sell a couple of players? They've got a big enough squad. It shouldn't have mattered if they were players they even liked or would rather have kept. If Klopp thought his defensive situation was gonna cost him the the title, then as a football man, he should have been prepared to rip up the formula for this season, sell Salah or Mane, along with maybe Oxlade or some others and get the defence sorted.

TLDR? They've all ballsed up in way or another. It's kin brilliant, isn't it.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Can you not see both sides of it though?

Sure Klopp ballsed up with his summer business. However, as I've said previously, they were top of the league when the transfer window opened.

Mismanagement aside. every man and his dog knew they needed to get a top centre back in if they wanted to defend their title.

FSG have basically thrown the towel in on retaining the title.

Although there has been a lack of pragmatism from Klopp, imo. If He knew that there wasn't funds available for a decent centre back, then why not just sell a couple of players. They've got a big enough squad. It shouldn't have mattered if they were players they even liked or would rather have kept. If Klopp thought his defensive situation was gonna cost him the the title, then as a football man, he should have been prepared to rip up the formula for this season, sell Salah or Mane, along with maybe Oxlade or some others and get the defence sorted.

TLDR? They've all ballsed up in way or another. It's kin brilliant, isn't it.

I see the point but no other team can operate like this. Even City couldn’t just buy a top centreback in January last window to cover Laporte. The overall investment in Liverpool under Klopp has been absolutely enormous, easily one of the biggest in Europe in terms of wages, transfer fees, agent fees. He’s only really had to sell Coutinho. He’s had free reign to sell off all their young players and buy world class ready made players to win immediately. What has it returned? One CL and one title in 5 years and unless they win the CL this year it will be 6. Compare that with Guardiola who has two (soon 3) titles, one FA Cup, and three league cups. He’s got a good chance of adding the FA Cup and League cup again this season and arguably a better chance at the CL also.

Guardiola has returned far more and yet hasn’t once called the club out for not backing him. As soon as the upward trend stopped for Klopp he was moaning about the level of backing. He should have delivered a lot more considering the financial backing he has had.

 

[John from Bootle]

I see the point but no other team can operate like this. Even City couldn’t just buy a top centreback in January last window to cover Laporte. The overall investment in Liverpool under Klopp has been absolutely enormous, easily one of the biggest in Europe in terms of wages, transfer fees, agent fees. He’s only really had to sell Coutinho. He’s had free reign to sell off all their young players and buy world class ready made players to win immediately. What has it returned? One CL and one title in 5 years and unless they win the CL this year it will be 6. Compare that with Guardiola who has two (soon 3) titles, one FA Cup, and three league cups. He’s got a good chance of adding the FA Cup and League cup again this season and arguably a better chance at the CL also.

Guardiola has returned far more and yet hasn’t once called the club out for not backing him. As soon as the upward trend stopped for Klopp he was moaning about the level of backing. He should have delivered a lot more considering the financial backing he has had.

Yeah, it's hard to disagree with any of that.

But as I've said, from a purely footballing point of view, FSG have basically waved the white flag on defending a title. It's not like they're never gonna spend any money again.

Klopp had options though. He's got a lot of valuable assets at his disposal. If he wants to keep all his favourites around at the expense of having an unbalanced squad then he can't really complain.

I'd imagine there's a good few players not happy with the white flag waving though.

 

[catcherintherye]

I see the point but no other team can operate like this. Even City couldn’t just buy a top centreback in January last window to cover Laporte. The overall investment in Liverpool under Klopp has been absolutely enormous, easily one of the biggest in Europe in terms of wages, transfer fees, agent fees. He’s only really had to sell Coutinho. He’s had free reign to sell off all their young players and buy world class ready made players to win immediately. What has it returned? One CL and one title in 5 years and unless they win the CL this year it will be 6. Compare that with Guardiola who has two (soon 3) titles, one FA Cup, and three league cups. He’s got a good chance of adding the FA Cup and League cup again this season and arguably a better chance at the CL also.

Guardiola has returned far more and yet hasn’t once called the club out for not backing him. As soon as the upward trend stopped for Klopp he was moaning about the level of backing. He should have delivered a lot more considering the financial backing he has had.

There are 2 points with Klopp.

1) On player spending, overall he has spent less than certain rivals, and had summers where they have not signed anybody.
2) He is the key independant variable that took FSG from laughing stock in the transfer market to be seen as prudent recruiters.

On point 1, I do think this is overplayed. At ifferent times he's spent lots of money. They heavily inflate fees recieved to the press, and under play what they pay, and pay a fortune in the middle to agents. So he has spent a lot more than is widely reported.

Secondly they have spent on wages substantially. As of the last set of accounts, wages would have been over 100m more than when he arrived, that could be close to £150m now. So before he spends a penny on transfers they are spending net £100-£150m more. Essentially they have prioritised re-signing Mane, Firmino, Salah, Van Dijk etc to long expensive contracts, rather than sell and get new players in. Probably quite smart, but certainly not 0 spend as it's often reported.

The 2nd point is the much better one though. Under the previous 3 managers, their recruitment was woeful. Like butt of the joke in the league woeful- as we were seen post 2017. He has made players better and increased the value of them. The likes of Lovren, Lallana, Firmino, Henderson to a degree Milner were all rubbish when he arrived. He made them better and in some cases integral parts of the team. There's no doubt all of the above had talent when he arrived, but it was his intervention that was key.

If he goes, the likelihood is the lack of spending will start to hurt them, and some of the "miracles" of spending from FSG will start to be seen in a different context. If I'm FSG, thats the risk with Klopp. Thats what I'm saying to Henry- it's fine getting rid of this guy, but before he turned up, al the nerds were throwing players up that had good numbers but we were 10th in the league getting hammered at relegation fodder like Stoke for 6.

 

[catcherintherye]

What people forget about Jota is that Hoever going the other way was part of the deal. How much would you value him at? He was arguably the club’s best defensive prospect (as seen by him playing in the Wolves first team whilst Philips Williams aren’t trusted and the others are on loan or not in the squad) at centreback and full back. Probably similar to where Holgate was a few years ago. Perhaps valued at least at 10 mill if a far inferior player like Brad Smith went to Bournemouth for 6 mill not long ago.

That would put the deal for Jota at 50 million. Undoubtedly a higher cost because Liverpool wanted to pay on the drip. Wolves had their pants down because they knew Liverpool were in the last chance saloon of the transfer window having not got Werner. For 50 million I’d be expecting a first team player who would come in and be one of the top strikers in the premier league. He is nowhere near that.

I mean I don't really rate Hoever, but your point is a fair one in that he is much better than Koumetio, Sepp Van der Berg, Williams and Phillips.

Thinking about it, they have really moved away from their younger players. Elliot is languishing in the championship. Hoever sold, the other CB's not played etc.

 

[Yarrgh]

Love it too. I hope everyone opens their eyes now. He had everyone fooled, but not us. The toxicity emanating off of that man is acrid!

This line is usually applied to narcissist's, sociopaths and of course psychopaths. And it's true what they say, once you get a glimpse of the real monster that resides behind the mask (even if it's for a split second), it's impossible to ever think of them the same way that they once were.

They spend years tweaking their skill of superficial charm, so that they know just how to manipulate people. But it's just a big con and like all lies, it eventually gets found out.

I mean, FFS, before Ted Bundy got busted, literally everyone he knew described him as being the most charming bloke that they've ever met! lol

Behave, Klopp's no Ted Bundy when it comes to the charm stakes.

 

[GwladysBlue]

 

[Tin-Tin]

Regardless of what anyone thinks of him as a manager, that is heartbreaking.