Champions

[Lanolin]

Not sure that's true. Spurs don't strike me as a team with a winning mentality given the amount of leads they let slip. But on the other hand Arsenal win the odd FA Cup here and there but look as mentally flaky as any team in the league.

Even teams that win leagues and European pots very often get partly dismantled and rebuilt as some players are seen as being hard to motivate once they have those successes under their belt.

I think some people handle pressure well and some people don't get complacent whatever they're doing. Get enough people in with those characteristics and things tend to improve. I'm not sure there's a way to grow a winning mentality.

Even perennial losers Wigan won a pot - games without pressure and they looked a different side to the ones struggling against relegation.

Yeah i'm with you. Winning mentality is a myth. Last year Liverpool had a winning mentality where they just seemed to be an unstoppable juggernaut, this year they can't see off awful teams. It's form, talent, whatever, not mentality. I think for us winning away at Anfield in particular, but any of the bogey grounds really, and winning a trophy, would definitely be a monkey off our backs that maybe released a bit of pressure and allowed the team a bit of room to breathe, but I just find the idea that you can magically create this mentality in players to be bizarre.

 

[Lanolin]

But it's not about progressing us, it's about being successful, about honor and pride, about becoming a big club again.
Neither 4th or the cup will progress us, one dosent automatically lead to the other, many clubs have landed a top 4 spot and not progressed and several cup winners have been relegated not long after.
The stadium is the focus for real progression IMO and even that isnt a guarantee, plenty of clubs in the lower leagues got new grounds, in fact even Arsenal didnt progress too much, they might even have gone backwards.

Nothing is a guarantee of success, but that doesn't mean that certain things can't be a massive help. If you can't see the reasons why finishing top 4 could lead to more sustained success then I honestly don't know what to say.

 

[number4.]

I am a real optimist, but you are right. There were 2 teams who had the potential to put all others out of sight. City and Liverpool. It's pretty clear Liverpool won't do that now. As you said a while back, if there wasa moment they were going to do it, it would have been between December-January. That they've failed is actually quite onimous for them.

City though, under the radar have looked very strong. I did say weeks ago, even when they were a long way behind, they were the big competitors for the title. Diaz doesn't get the plaudits of VVD, he wasn't signed for a world record fee to enormous fan fare, but he has in his own way been every bit as important. Laporte is not the same player following his knee injury, and he has really steadied them down.

From our perspective, I can make a case that we can finish above all teams, but City if they kick into gear we can't. And they ook worryingly like they are getting into gear for me.

All we can do is keep winning. 4 game winning runs, even if we have a loss or two in between them are really useful. You are right too, that managers like Mourinho, Klopp, OGS, Arteta may start to prioritise Europe as a result- which as you say works well for us. I'd also note, in all years European football makes things very difficult. It stretches squads and causes injuries. This year more than ever, with no meaningful pre-season it could be very damaging for those sides. With all the uncertainty of when and how games go ahead, quite restrictive rules etc, it will not help them. If I were to make a case for us V City, thats about the only thing I coud say- does the European football cause a fatigue?

Anyway, it's a fascinating season. I greatly miss not having fans in, and sort of think what that away at Wolves would have been like had they been there to see that win. But it's been brilliant entertainment this season. On a whatsapp group with loads of different fans, and the enagement and discussion about who is finishing where is unchartered for us all really.

Yep - all fairly spot on - for the me the only thing that might stop city is an injury crisis & even then they probably have the options to manage it. For me the will steer to a 10 point league win with very little drama, which is a shame in one way, it was set up for final few weeks, which I dont see coming to fruition now.

As per Liverpool - Yes, my take was always they had a great set of fixtures and playing teams not used to playing two games a week they would have picked up circa 13 points out of 15 & incredibly they have managed to pick up six, with one goal in their last 4. I do maintain they are the only team capable of a 10 game plus winning run if city do slip up and they are rightly still second favourites, that said; I also see them going completely the other way and finishing 7th. It will probably be in between.

 

[APN_EFC]

Nothing is a guarantee of success, but that doesn't mean that certain things can't be a massive help. If you can't see the reasons why finishing top 4 could lead to more sustained success then I honestly don't know what to say.

I think the main point is there has to be a sustained difference, yes and for that CL is more important in giving us a chance because good young players want to show off their skills in the CL either as an end point or to get a move via Everton to a bigger CL club. So we will attract better players with CL rather than a Cup Win. But within the next 4 yrs we should be in a few Semis and a Final I think. Once again, taking the queue from other teams who have moved to the top..they started appearing in finals and losing them, before starting to win. I hope we have the patience to make this a sustained development! All the ingredients are in place

Like how Moyes consistently made us top 8, we now have to consistently be top 6...then top 4, then always close to winning, then winning. But that process has to take 4-5 years, which is both a very short, and very long time, if you konw what I mean, hopefully we all have enough patience. Pochettino made Spurs consistently get into the top 4 and then got them to a final, but didn't win anything. How would we feel if we did this
2021 - Europa
2022 - 4th place
2023 - 3rd or 4th place
2024 - get out of our CL group make some progress in CL / also top 4

Looking back, we would then see that for the last 4 years we have qualified for Europe, for the first time in history (?) and that would be amazing but we would not have won anything, but we'd be established top 4, and then we could consistently attract talent to us. We have to make use of this small window of 2 years when we have Ancelotti + James together with all the other players coming good around them. If we could make this next 4 years work something like how i've dreamed above, then post-2024, with possibly different board members, different managers, etc, we would have to build on that again, and probably between 2024-2030 do something amazing with actual trophies. I hope they have written up a good, long-term strategy.

 

[MrGrumpy]

I think the main point is there has to be a sustained difference, yes and for that CL is more important in giving us a chance because good young players want to show off their skills in the CL either as an end point or to get a move via Everton to a bigger CL club. So we will attract better players with CL rather than a Cup Win. But within the next 4 yrs we should be in a few Semis and a Final I think. Once again, taking the queue from other teams who have moved to the top..they started appearing in finals and losing them, before starting to win. I hope we have the patience to make this a sustained development! All the ingredients are in place

Like how Moyes consistently made us top 8, we now have to consistently be top 6...then top 4, then always close to winning, then winning. But that process has to take 4-5 years, which is both a very short, and very long time, if you konw what I mean, hopefully we all have enough patience. Pochettino made Spurs consistently get into the top 4 and then got them to a final, but didn't win anything. How would we feel if we did this
2021 - Europa
2022 - 4th place
2023 - 3rd or 4th place
2024 - get out of our CL group make some progress in CL / also top 4

Looking back, we would then see that for the last 4 years we have qualified for Europe, for the first time in history (?) and that would be amazing but we would not have won anything, but we'd be established top 4, and then we could consistently attract talent to us. We have to make use of this small window of 2 years when we have Ancelotti + James together with all the other players coming good around them. Then after that, with possibly different board members, different managers, etc, we would have to build on that again, and probably between 2024-2030 do something amazing with actual trophies. I hope they have written up a good, long-term strategy.

More like
21 -CL
22-CL winners

 

[Lanolin]

I think the main point is there has to be a sustained difference, yes and for that CL is more important in giving us a chance because good young players want to show off their skills in the CL either as an end point or to get a move via Everton to a bigger CL club. So we will attract better players with CL rather than a Cup Win. But within the next 4 yrs we should be in a few Semis and a Final I think. Once again, taking the queue from other teams who have moved to the top..they started appearing in finals and losing them, before starting to win. I hope we have the patience to make this a sustained development! All the ingredients are in place

Like how Moyes consistently made us top 8, we now have to consistently be top 6...then top 4, then always close to winning, then winning. But that process has to take 4-5 years only, and hopefully we all have enough patience. Pochettino made Spurs consistently get into the top 4 and then got them to a final, but didn't win anything. How would we feel if we did this
2021 - Europa
2022 - 4th place
2023 - 3rd or 4th place
2024 - get out of our CL group make some progress in CL / also top 4

that would be amazing but we would not have won anything, but we'd be established top 4, and then we could consistently attract talent to us. We have to make use of this small window of 2 years when we have Ancelotti + James together with all the other players coming good around them.

I agree with the basic point of what you're saying. I'd disagree slightly in that I don't think you have to do it steadily/lose before you win etc, it's just that's the most common way because going from also rans to the best team in the league is very difficult. I don't think it's necessarily that losing semi-finals or finals is in itself a vital part of growth, it's just that teams often get to a point where they're better than 90% of their opposition but still not as good as the other 10%, so they consistently beat everybody else before falling short when they come up against the very best. When it comes to cup competitions it can just be luck of the draw, in recent years we've actually had some pretty rotten luck with the draw, going out to Liverpool twice, United, Arsenal, and Leicester over the last few years. Some years you wouldn't meet a side that good until the final.

 

[AsiaAsia82]

French mushrooms

 

[Zatara]

I think the main point is there has to be a sustained difference, yes and for that CL is more important in giving us a chance because good young players want to show off their skills in the CL either as an end point or to get a move via Everton to a bigger CL club. So we will attract better players with CL rather than a Cup Win. But within the next 4 yrs we should be in a few Semis and a Final I think. Once again, taking the queue from other teams who have moved to the top..they started appearing in finals and losing them, before starting to win. I hope we have the patience to make this a sustained development! All the ingredients are in place

Like how Moyes consistently made us top 8, we now have to consistently be top 6...then top 4, then always close to winning, then winning. But that process has to take 4-5 years, which is both a very short, and very long time, if you konw what I mean, hopefully we all have enough patience. Pochettino made Spurs consistently get into the top 4 and then got them to a final, but didn't win anything. How would we feel if we did this
2021 - Europa
2022 - 4th place
2023 - 3rd or 4th place
2024 - get out of our CL group make some progress in CL / also top 4

Looking back, we would then see that for the last 4 years we have qualified for Europe, for the first time in history (?) and that would be amazing but we would not have won anything, but we'd be established top 4, and then we could consistently attract talent to us. We have to make use of this small window of 2 years when we have Ancelotti + James together with all the other players coming good around them. If we could make this next 4 years work something like how i've dreamed above, then post-2024, with possibly different board members, different managers, etc, we would have to build on that again, and probably between 2024-2030 do something amazing with actual trophies. I hope they have written up a good, long-term strategy.

You mention about 2 more years with Ancelotti and James.

The beauty of the top 4 is that the prize money in the champions league would potentially allow us to buy a James level player each season.

Its really a huge jump from where we are now.

 

[Papa Shango]

It's hypothetical. Extract the larger point. 5th places doesn't get champions league.

Neither did 4th...

 

[Mkjjones]

Didn't we finish 4th in 2005? Don't know what happened that year parts of it is a blurr. A cup the FA Cup any owl tin cup is better than nothing the club has forgot what it's like to be winners and it's trickled down to the fans to be satisfied with a place in Europe. Which funny, winning the FA Cup............

We got champions league and got knocked out in the qualifying round...

 

[4737carlin]

Nothing is a guarantee of success, but that doesn't mean that certain things can't be a massive help. If you can't see the reasons why finishing top 4 could lead to more sustained success then I honestly don't know what to say.

You say more success, it's not success though, winning the cup is success, coming 4th is failure to come 1st.

 

[Lanolin]

You say more success, it's not success though, winning the cup is success, coming 4th is failure to come 1st.

I didn't know you had internet in the 80s. Try reading it again though, 'more sustained success' not 'further success'. I also said 'finishing top 4' not 'finishing 4th'. The point is that finishing 4th gives a platform to build from and opens doors which can lead to sustained success. It's not a given, but it definitely increases your chances. Winning a cup just doesn't. It used to be a big deal, now it isn't. Times have most definitely changed. That doesn't mean I wouldn't want us to win one, from a purely selfish point of view to have that day in the sun would mean a lot to me, winning a trophy at last would feel amazing for that day and would be a great memory, but finishing top 4 would certainly give the club it's best chance of giving us more days like that in the long run.

 

[catcherintherye]

Yep - all fairly spot on - for the me the only thing that might stop city is an injury crisis & even then they probably have the options to manage it. For me the will steer to a 10 point league win with very little drama, which is a shame in one way, it was set up for final few weeks, which I dont see coming to fruition now.

As per Liverpool - Yes, my take was always they had a great set of fixtures and playing teams not used to playing two games a week they would have picked up circa 13 points out of 15 & incredibly they have managed to pick up six, with one goal in their last 4. I do maintain they are the only team capable of a 10 game plus winning run if city do slip up and they are rightly still second favourites, that said; I also see them going completely the other way and finishing 7th. It will probably be in between.

Thats it really with City. It's not just that players are coming back for them either, but players are coming back but the core team is playing well. It's then much easier to just drop people in. The only variable I see (beyond said injury difficulties) is that the CL takes more out of teams that it ordinarily would, and they go deep. I mean it's not wholly unfeasible that happens, but most of the other sides are in the CL so you'd imagine they won't take advantage.

As for Liverpool. Yes this was their moment to shine and they've flunked their lines. It's worth noting Thiago's played in these games too, and it's not relaly helped output. Something is not right with that front 3 for me- I've seen Salah come out and say he wants a contract offer that hasn't come etc.

I have to curb myself with them, as they all just assume it clicks back into shape, and my fear is that it will always click into shape for them. However if you were looking at it objectively, you would say with European games to come as well that the likelihood is it may get better before it gets worse for them. They will probably sort themselves out by the end of the season (relative to what has gone on the last few weeks) but I do think there will be some inconsistency to come.

Some of the reds I speak to say that Firmino hasn't been right for 18 months. There's a fair bit of discontent currently.

 

[number4.]

Thats it really with City. It's not just that players are coming back for them either, but players are coming back but the core team is playing well. It's then much easier to just drop people in. The only variable I see (beyond said injury difficulties) is that the CL takes more out of teams that it ordinarily would, and they go deep. I mean it's not wholly unfeasible that happens, but most of the other sides are in the CL so you'd imagine they won't take advantage.

As for Liverpool. Yes this was their moment to shine and they've flunked their lines. It's worth noting Thiago's played in these games too, and it's not relaly helped output. Something is not right with that front 3 for me- I've seen Salah come out and say he wants a contract offer that hasn't come etc.

I have to curb myself with them, as they all just assume it clicks back into shape, and my fear is that it will always click into shape for them. However if you were looking at it objectively, you would say with European games to come as well that the likelihood is it may get better before it gets worse for them. They will probably sort themselves out by the end of the season (relative to what has gone on the last few weeks) but I do think there will be some inconsistency to come.

Some of the reds I speak to say that Firmino hasn't been right for 18 months. There's a fair bit of discontent currently.

I think there is a huge risk of over complicating it with their front three. For me they are all just playing really badly, which hasnt happened concurrently before. They have always had one to bail them out.

Firmino would be the one I would concur with - he looks somewhat broken. There was three occasions V Man United where they were a pass away from a huge chance and each time he made the wrong call. Salah and Mane are class and will recover, question is when (in the immediate future) & what damage is done. It's a massive week for them with a tricky match V Burnley (which anything but 3 points formalises a "Crisis") and spurs

 

[catcherintherye]

I think there is a huge risk of over complicating it with their front three. For me they are all just playing really badly, which hasnt happened concurrently before. They have always had one to bail them out.

Firmino would be the one I would concur with - he looks somewhat broken. There was three occasions V Man United where they were a pass away from a huge chance and each time he made the wrong call. Salah and Mane are class and will recover, question is when (in the immediate future) & what damage is done. It's a massive week for them with a tricky match V Burnley (which anything but 3 points formalises a "Crisis") and spurs

I am not sure I was over complicating it mate!

Firmino is nearly 30 now and has a lot of "miles on the clock" (they all do to be fair) so in real terms may be a bit older in "football years" (a bit like Wayne Rooney was). I just think he's not as productive as he was, and doesn't have the same output.

Mane has always blown a bit hot and cold. He had a hot 2 years, it may well be a cold 2 years and "reversion to mean". Again though, 29 soon and you sort of have to wonder if he's ever going to get back to that "peak" level again.

Salah looks the most unhappy to me. He actually started the season brilliantly but seems pre-occcupied. So it's different issues with each. I'm not sure they switch back on like a switch though, especially when you consider their ages. They improve on the last 4 games for sure, but I doubt they hit those heights again.

They will try and push Salah out of the dor in the summer, as I've been saying for some time. For their sake they have to hope Mbappe doesn't move first, not because they have any hope of getting him (they don't) but because Real Madrid will not spend big twice in 1 summer.