Burka ban

[RFUS]

If you think Goat's reading all that you've got another thing coming.

I reckon Goat sees my username and just skips past, really.

Or a fancy dress party.

Naturally.

I'm always right mate.

Definitely, mate. Except that time when you said 4 inches is the national average. I was just agreeing with you at the time so you didn't feel bad about yourself.

 

[RFUS]

I'm all for protecting the rights of women, but I do think this is a little bit... hmm... well, it's overkill.

Although, that said, if it comes down to womens rights and religious rights, I will always side with the former.

What a prickly issue this is. I prefer the music threads.





*backs out*

 

[bluebloodinmyveins]

I reckon Goat sees my username and just skips past, really.



Naturally.



Definitely, mate. Except that time when you said 4 inches is the national average. I was just agreeing with you at the time so you didn't feel bad about yourself.

4 inches wide mate not long. Just like a sad movie it brings tears to the eyes.

Anyway this is a serious thread, dont hijack it with your perv talk you one trick pony.

 

[Silas]

Enforced freedom seems like an oxymoron to me?

I don't have an issue with Burkas tbh, of course if an establishment or facility chooses to make it policy to have Burkas down then that is their right but I don't swallow the argument that we are somehow being progressive by stopping people dressing how they wish. Unless of course we can prove they are being forced to wear them?

 

[Tubey]

I'm all for protecting the rights of women, but I do think this is a little bit... hmm... well, it's overkill.

Although, that said, if it comes down to womens rights and religious rights, I will always side with the former.

What a prickly issue this is. I prefer the music threads.





*backs out*

Look at it this way - it is haraam (forbidden) for women to wear clothes that imitate men. This includes T-shirts and jeans. They are punished if they do so. In fact, wearing tight fitting clothing is exactly the same as being naked in the eyes of Islam.

This is completely incompatable with the way we live. The wearing of the burka is not a freedom, it is often enforced. The ban promotes civil liberties by taking away this enforcement.

It isn't about taking away religious rights, it's about promoting womens rights in a society that believes in womens rights. Islam cannot override our own beliefs, much in the same way as we in the west would not presume to enforce our rules and beliefs on Islamic countries. Hence why a couple were jailed for kissing on a beach recently in Dubai!

 

[Seamus Colemole]

Read my post for your answer. It's literally nothing to do with criminality.

Here's the exact reason for the ban:



It's not hard to understand.

Did you read in my post where i asked exactly how the state telling a woman she can't wear a burka is different to a man telling a woman she has to wear one?

And will the French implement a law saying no man can tell his girlfriend what to wear? No school or business can tell a girl she can't wear a mini skirt?

If its about womens rights why isn't it a ban on men telling women what to wear as opposed to an outright ban on faces being covered in public?

 

[RFUS]

4 inches wide mate not long. Just like a sad movie it brings tears to the eyes.

Anyway this is a serious thread, dont hijack it with your perv talk you one trick pony.

I know, I know. I'm so far out of my comfort zone.

I need gay jokes to say grounded...

unless someone knows a good muslim band?

Enforced freedom seems like an oxymoron to me?

I don't have an issue with Burkas tbh, of course if an establishment or facility chooses to make it policy to have Burkas down then that is their right but I don't swallow the argument that we are somehow being progressive by stopping people dressing how they wish. Unless of course we can prove they are being forced to wear them?

That nails the predicament, really. It's removing one freedom to try and allow another. But it's a bit too speculative for my liking. Not everyone wearing a burka is being forced to wear one, surely?

I guess if they're going to see this through, we can only hope the good it does outweighs the inevitable controversy and likely damage.

 

[Silas]

I know, I know. I'm so far out of my comfort zone.

I need gay jokes to say grounded...

unless someone knows a good muslim band?
.

The Lost Prophets?

 

[GrandOldTeam]

The Lost Prophets?

Mike Lewis posts on here - top lad.

 

[Tubey]

Did you read in my post where i asked exactly how the state telling a woman she can't wear a burka is different to a man telling a woman she has to wear one?

And will the French implement a law saying no man can tell his girlfriend what to wear? No school or business can tell a girl she can't wear a mini skirt?

If its about womens rights why isn't it a ban on men telling women what to wear as opposed to an outright ban on faces being covered in public?

There is a ban on men telling women what to wear. It's enshrined in our civil rights, which states clearly that one person cannot control another, specifically over the age of 18. There's special rules in place for matters like school uniform and the right to marriage for minors; again, put in place to prevent bad things happening to young people.

Adults in our society have the right to do what they like within the law with an independent will.

In fact, this is actually upholding that civil right. It's making sure that Muslim men cannot dictate what a Muslim woman can and cannot wear. As I said, there's no reliable way of knowing if a woman is being forced into wearing clothing, so much in the same way that we ban slavery because there's no way of knowing if someone is voluntarily being a slave or not, so the banning of the burka is due to this.

 

[neonleon]

If we are to approve of the Burkah, perhaps we can sanctify conjugal rights for children marrying adults, something widespread in Islam.

Or perhaps Sharia law: Stonings for adultery or for a women going to the shops unattended by a male escort.

How about allowing honour killings for women ducking out of arranged marriages or apostates?

There plenty within the culture of Islam that is already expressly forbidden by our laws.

And can someone explain how one section of society hiding and keeping half their population (i.e the women) from the inhabitants of the country they live in, isn't racist or at the very least culturist (if there is such a word) and how it engenders racial harmony?

Don't Muslim's care about integration?

It is not a dirty word, even if its anathema to most of the tenets of multiculturalism.

 

[Silas]

There is a ban on men telling women what to wear. It's enshrined in our civil rights, which states clearly that one person cannot control another, specifically over the age of 18. There's special rules in place for matters like school uniform and the right to marriage for minors; again, put in place to prevent bad things happening to young people.

Adults in our society have the right to do what they like within the law with an independent will.

In fact, this is actually upholding that civil right. It's making sure that Muslim men cannot dictate what a Muslim woman can and cannot wear. As I said, there's no reliable way of knowing if a woman is being forced into wearing clothing, so much in the same way that we ban slavery because there's no way of knowing if someone is voluntarily being a slave or not, so the banning of the burka is due to this.

In just think there is a lot of scaremongering and lack of understanding amongst it all though. It isn't the clothing that is the issue is it? Banning the clothing in itself accomplishes nothing.

 

[Tubey]

In just think there is a lot of scaremongering and lack of understanding amongst it all though. It isn't the clothing that is the issue is it? Banning the clothing in itself accomplishes nothing.

It's treating a symptom of the illness. It's not an attack on the religion; it's an attack on the side-effect of the religious belief which can often "keep women in their place".

The difference between banning a burka and, say, banning T-shirts, is that no major group of people are forced on a daily basis to wear a T-shirt lest they suffer severe social consequences and/or punishment.

I'm not saying every Muslim is forced to wear the burka etc., but there's no denying a sizeable chunk are.

Let's put it this way - if I were forced by a religion to wear a top hat every day, I'd welcome a state-induced law saying I didn't have to, as it gives me the choice to either not wear a hat, or wear a different hat. With the religious law, you aren't allowed to choose not to wear the top hat.

Bad analogies ftw!

 

[Seamus Colemole]

There is a ban on men telling women what to wear. It's enshrined in our civil rights, which states clearly that one person cannot control another, specifically over the age of 18. There's special rules in place for matters like school uniform and the right to marriage for minors; again, put in place to prevent bad things happening to young people.

Adults in our society have the right to do what they like within the law with an independent will.

In fact, this is actually upholding that civil right. It's making sure that Muslim men cannot dictate what a Muslim woman can and cannot wear. As I said, there's no reliable way of knowing if a woman is being forced into wearing clothing, so much in the same way that we ban slavery because there's no way of knowing if someone is voluntarily being a slave or not, so the banning of the burka is due to this.

So you reckon that next time a girl walks into a police station and says he boyfriend is making her wear a baggy jumper he'll get arrested will he?

This situation is completly different to slavery. You don't ban volunteery work cause someone might be working against your wil do you?

Therefor banning a burka because some women might be wearing it against their will is wrong. When there is clear evidence they are i could accept that but until there is those women who want to wear it are being denied their freedom to wear it, they are having their civil liberties taken away.

Its a tricky one really and i don't agree with either way of doing things, total allowance or total ban. But overall i don't think banning it is the answer at all.

 

[neonleon]

Just a little info for everyone. This is predominantly a cultural issue rather than an expressly religious one (although Muslims are framing it as a religious issue).

It its not incumbent on any Muslim to wear this clothing. It is not written in the Koran as far as I'm aware. It comes from Saudi Arabia; a country renowned for its regressive, savage and illiberal atitude towards women.

This is a quote from Yasmin Alibhai-Brown in the guardian:

This relativism is my big problem with what you've just said. The faith does not demand this. This is a Wahhabi project, funded by the Saudis, which has been very successfully planted here. I don't want to ban the veil in the French way. The French are racist. They're doing it for the wrong reasons. But they're doing the right thing. In Britain, I really think we should be entitled to say that, in public spaces and public jobs, this choice is not a choice. We can't all choose to wear what we want.